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Ahoatam
05-06-2005, 05:28 PM
Planned, foreseen, whatever. The point is, I knew the minute that Shmi talked about the circumstances of Anakin's birth that he was "planned," and that meant to me that it was meant for him to eventually become Darth Vader. I mean, D'uh!
SINCE THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENS.
Ask George Lucas this: "George, did you mean for Anakin to become Darth Vader, and that the Sith were involved in his creation? Did you intend for Palpatine, who becomes Emperor, to be the driving force (by way of what he learned from his own master) behind the creation of Anakin/Vader?
Let me guess . . . the answer would be . . . "YES."
Okay, I've been hanging around here for a couple of months, as well as anxiously awaiting this movie to see if the series can be redeemed. I've finally decided to break my silence and speak up and call "bullshit" on this.
There's no "well 'duh!" moment, Jim. You may have assumed that GL was going to head that way with the story, but you never knew, and neither did we. Technically, with what we've been told in this thread about ROTS, we can still only make an assumption. You have no call talking down to someone about a couple lines in TPM because the only thing those lines imply is immaculate conception.
As far as your ask GL question, it's irrelevant to the subject. The subject is whether or not one can infer from Episodes 1 and 2 if Anakin was definitely created via Palpatine. And the answer is "no." One can certainly hypothesize this - hell, the morons over at TheForce.net have been arguing this possibility for years. But even the rapid fanboy repeat viewer can't extrapolate your assumptions about the storyline from the material presented in Episodes 1 and 2. All you can do is guess at the possibilities until the text gives you an answer.
For what it's worth, I also appreciate this plot turn - it rings truer to the machinations of Palpatine than the will of microscopic life forms.

Bailey
05-06-2005, 05:41 PM
jabba there's a difference between guessing that plot revelation and it having been previously cemented in the text. there was all kinds of speculation as to the nature of the immaculate conception, but there was nothing in episodes 1 or 2 that indicated palpatine had to be behind it. I mean, you might as well reason since he talks so much about "planning" and "forseeing" that he was behind lando losing the falcon to han in a game of intergalactic texas hold 'em. it was a possibility, sure, but it was left open until now.

Samurai Mike
05-06-2005, 05:48 PM
I find the idea that Palpatine is Anakins father one of the most unimaginative and mind-bogglingly unoriginal plot contrivances in movie history. Lucas came up with THAT in 20 years?!
But I digress, can anyone give me a good rating of the lightsaber duels? Is it really just a case of quantity over quality, or were you just expecting a bit too much? There are supposed to be 5 duels in this film, but they've barely warranted a mention so far. Are they really that bad?

Jim Pappas/Jabba
05-06-2005, 05:49 PM
Okay, I've been hanging around here for a couple of months, as well as anxiously awaiting this movie to see if the series can be redeemed. I've finally decided to break my silence and speak up and call "bullshit" on this.
There's no "well 'duh!" moment, Jim. You may have assumed that GL was going to head that way with the story, but you never knew, and neither did we. Technically, with what we've been told in this thread about ROTS, we can still only make an assumption. You have no call talking down to someone about a couple lines in TPM because the only thing those lines imply is immaculate conception.
As far as your ask GL question, it's irrelevant to the subject. The subject is whether or not one can infer from Episodes 1 and 2 if Anakin was definitely created via Palpatine. And the answer is "no." One can certainly hypothesize this - hell, the morons over at TheForce.net have been arguing this possibility for years. But even the rapid fanboy repeat viewer can't extrapolate your assumptions about the storyline from the material presented in Episodes 1 and 2. All you can do is guess at the possibilities until the text gives you an answer.
For what it's worth, I also appreciate this plot turn - it rings truer to the machinations of Palpatine than the will of microscopic life forms.
Yeah, call bullshit. I am sorry, but you can't argue with reality. The REALITY is that Palpatine DID IN FACT have something to do with the birth of Anakin, and that it was his machinations that led to the creation of Darth Vader. Goddammit, but it is all there on the screen. I cannot believe that Sean (Fett) and gravedigger couldn't see this coming. I fucking saw it coming, and I have discussed this ad nauseum with my friends over the past several YEARS. And as for asking GL, it is NOT IRRELEVANT, since Star Wars is HIS creation. Some of us are, apparently, more intuitive than others. I can't help it that this is so.

Charlie Brigden
05-06-2005, 05:51 PM
Did Palpatine name me Sean too?

devincf
05-06-2005, 05:52 PM
I think the duels are fairly lifeless most of the time, and The Duel is a major disappointment.
BTW, I think it's interesting that people here are saying my take is negative. I am definitely more positive than negative on the film, and my review at rottentomatoes will be fresh rated. But Episode III is a pretty mediocre movie, and it fizzles more than it sizzles - and frankly, Episode III needed to be the one to hit it out of the ballpark. As a generic action film it's OK, as the most important episode of the PT it's a bummer.

gravedigger
05-06-2005, 05:57 PM
Congratulations on being a good guesser, Jabba, but that doesn't mean ANYTHING in the first two prequels sets up the revelation about Palpatine being Anakin's old man.

Waker
05-06-2005, 06:00 PM
I think the duels are fairly lifeless most of the time, and The Duel is a major disappointment.
BTW, I think it's interesting that people here are saying my take is negative. I am definitely more positive than negative on the film
Yea I don't see where anybody'd get the impression that you hated the film, besides of course your several posts happily bashing it.
And Fatboy is a douche, if only because he goes over the top about everything he ever writes about or discusses, and has no self-awareness; he's wound up leaving, dramatically, every board on the internet, and critiquing them at length on the next board he wanders to. But that doesn't necessarily invalidate his points.

Samurai Mike
05-06-2005, 06:02 PM
I think the duels are fairly lifeless most of the time, and The Duel is a major disappointment.
Man that sucks, after the cool but way too short duels in AOTC. So what IS good?

devincf
05-06-2005, 06:06 PM
McGregor is good. The scene at the ballet, minus the whole thing about Palpy making Anakin, is good. The slaughter at the Jedi temple is good. Obi Wan leaving Anakin to die is good.
The back and forth plotting between Palpatine and the Jedi Council (each is trying to use Anakin against the other) would be GREAT if it happened in more than two back to back scenes. That should have been the main plot of the movie, with Anakin increasingly torn.

cognizant
05-06-2005, 06:13 PM
Noob question: Why would Palpatine 'create' someone powerful enough to beat him? He looked pretty comfortable using Maul, Dooku, etc, aways staying on top.

devincf
05-06-2005, 06:15 PM
Noob question: Why would Palpatine 'create' someone powerful enough to beat him? He looked pretty comfortable using Maul, Dooku, etc, aways staying on top.
I think it's a good question. I guess he thought he could control Vader?
The other question is: how does Vader go from being the right hand man of Palpatine in III to Tarkin's bitch in IV?

Russ Fischer
05-06-2005, 06:17 PM
The other question is: how does Vader go from being the right hand man of Palpatine in III to Tarkin's bitch in IV?
He fell in with a bad crowd....Chewbacca.

cognizant
05-06-2005, 06:20 PM
I think it's a good question. I guess he thought he could control Vader?
We could stretch it and hypothesize that Palpatine's masterplan was to create and then ensure the Skywalker line would continue and he would use each member like lapdogs for his nefarious schemes (because he's a lazy bastard or something), first Anakin, then his son Luke, and so on forever, but this plan (ludicrous as it sounds) is shot to shit from the beginning because of Anakin's duel with Obi 1 which leaves him more machine than man.
Or something equally contrived.

Charlie Brigden
05-06-2005, 06:21 PM
I guess Palpatine was so overconfident in his powers of control that he though no apprentice would ever try to overthrow him, even with the Sith's history. Maybe he saw himself as the ultimate Sith Lord, and after Vader decided he wouldn't need any more to do his bidding, but didn't think what had gone on in the past with Sith overthrowing Sith would ever happen to him.
I always saw Vader as a kind of advisor. Tarkin was the main military commander, and Vader was always just there in the background to represent the Emperor. A kind of Sith Advisor I guess.

Russ Fischer
05-06-2005, 06:23 PM
Noob question: Why would Palpatine 'create' someone powerful enough to beat him? He looked pretty comfortable using Maul, Dooku, etc, aways staying on top.
That's the problem with foreseeing things. Unlike Jim, most seers can't actually see how everything is going to work out. Palpatine could control Vader easily -- that's the great thing about conditioning someone with hate and loss.
Vader was supposed to kill Yoda and Kenobi. With their deaths, Padme and the kids might not have lived, or the children could have been raised as Sith. (Like Jordan, Minnesota for dark jedi.) If Vader hadn't failed to kill those two jedi, none of the OT would happen, and Palpatine and Vader would still be steering the ship.

Litmus Configuration
05-06-2005, 06:23 PM
Hmmm. I used to like Fatboy. Now he's proven himself to be both a coward and a liar. A shame he went off the deep end and started fabricating all sorts of nonsense regarding people's honest opinions. Oh well.
Frankly, I think my opinion of EP3 has been pretty balanced, pointing out the good and the bad. And compared to how I feel about EPs 1 and 2, I feel my overall opinions about EP3 are downright positive. I guess everything either has to be a "masterpiece" or a "failure" for most people these days.

Darth Chocula
05-06-2005, 06:39 PM
How is Jimmy Smits in this as Organa? Thats the only thing I can think of that wasn't covered here...

Ahoatam
05-06-2005, 06:45 PM
Did Palpatine name me Sean too?
"Well, D'uh!"

Samurai Mike
05-06-2005, 07:38 PM
Frankly, I think my opinion of EP3 has been pretty balanced, pointing out the good and the bad. And compared to how I feel about EPs 1 and 2, I feel my overall opinions about EP3 are downright positive. I guess everything either has to be a "masterpiece" or a "failure" for most people these days.
What did you think of Eps 1 and 2 when you first saw them? I ask because a lot of people (like me) liked them first up, then saw through the eye candy soon after. I guess I'm asking you if you think you're current opinion on Ep 3 will change?
I don't know quite what to make of the opinions here. Most of the reviewers seem to be more interested in pointing out whats wrong with it, then saying "but I think overall I like it". I'm so confused! (Not difficult to achieve).

seantree
05-06-2005, 07:49 PM
http://www.millenniumfalcon.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=4444
just to clear up the Palpatine fathering Anakin deal. I'm glad that was not true as it would have ruined the saga for me.

Litmus Configuration
05-06-2005, 08:02 PM
What did you think of Eps 1 and 2 when you first saw them? I ask because a lot of people (like me) liked them first up, then saw through the eye candy soon after. I guess I'm asking you if you think you're current opinion on Ep 3 will change?
I strongly disliked both EPs 1 and 2 right out of the gate...but in different ways. My hatred of EP1 was very confusing because I had been such a die-hard STAR WARS fan for so many years. It took me a while to fully reconcile my disappointment. I had no such hesitation with EP2.
EP3 is a different animal. The more I think about it, the more questions I end up asking. Unfortunately, I'm not finding satisfying answers. But still, I consider it a significant improvement over EPs 1 and 2, and for that, I remain somewhat grateful that at least one of the Prequels wasn't a total failure.

Canned Food
05-06-2005, 08:06 PM
Although I haven't seen the movie yet, I noticed some of you guys were speculating on "what ifs?," such as "what if Anakin had killed Obi Wan Kenobi."
It's interesting to see how the future shifts dramatically throughout episode III, causing people to wonder how things could have been if they had not transpired as they did in the film:
Anakin and Padme were gonna retire to Naboo after their secret got out and both were expelled from their homes.
Then, Anakin converted to the Sith, and things were going to be that the Jedi would be extinguished, Palpatine would be killed by Anakin/Vader, and Padme would sit as his side as the new Imperial family in the galaxy. Kinda neat to imagine how their kids would have been like had they been raised as Sith.

Andre Dellamorte
05-06-2005, 08:07 PM
http://www.millenniumfalcon.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=4444
just to clear up the Palpatine fathering Anakin deal. I'm glad that was not true as it would have ruined the saga for me.
Fatboy's argument wouldn't hold up in court. Sidious is a liar, and evil. But... that said, who's to say that he's lying?

devincf
05-06-2005, 08:26 PM
Fatboy is simply full of shit on that point. On both points, probably. Has he seen the movie? Because the way that Palpatine talks about it... anyway, ANakin shows no reaction to the creating life thing. Weak seduction.

devincf
05-06-2005, 08:28 PM
And frankly, these films are not so subtle that he would be lying about that (after leaving the immaculate conception door open from I) without us being told.

Russ Fischer
05-06-2005, 08:30 PM
From my perspective, it doesn't matter.
Immaculate/Jesus Anakin is terrible.
Created Anakin is terrible.
And what of the midichlorians? Using the Jesus example (as in the thread) they don't fit. Midichlorians weren't necessary to create Jesus. Granted, they're another very stupid idea, but an idea that doesn't fit well with the Jesus theory nonetheless.

Graham
05-06-2005, 08:32 PM
What did you think of Eps 1 and 2 when you first saw them? I ask because a lot of people (like me) liked them first up, then saw through the eye candy soon after. I guess I'm asking you if you think you're current opinion on Ep 3 will change?
I don't know quite what to make of the opinions here. Most of the reviewers seem to be more interested in pointing out whats wrong with it, then saying "but I think overall I like it". I'm so confused! (Not difficult to achieve).
It's important to be totally honest here...I watched this (TPM) in Leicester Square(sp) and paid out a shitload of cash to 'enjoy' it...the enjoyment lasted 'til I hit sunlight,,,(AOTC) was in a similar but not so expensive venue...as for where I'll see ROTS, I'll see where I take myself......

seantree
05-06-2005, 08:34 PM
could be. I'll have to wait until I see it on the 19th to be sure. But, would Lucas throw that line in there and never mention it again if it were true? Some of the arguements mad ein that thread and the one at theforce.net are valid. Such as, If Palpatine could create force sensitive children why not build an entire army of them? The fact that anakin was worried over Padme's death would be a great reason for Palp's to lie about this power also. On the other hand it would be a great blow to the Jedi. I mean finding out that your prophecy had been fulfilled by genetic enhancement? Makes all of their beliefs go down the tubes.

Samurai Mike
05-06-2005, 08:35 PM
I'm glad to hear Ewan is finally getting a chance to shine here (well I hope so). Compared with the first two films, what would you rate Obi-wans 'kickass factor' in this one? With say TPM being a 7 (cool Maul fight, little else), and a 3 for AOTC (generally clueless, unsatisfying fights, needs kids to help him etc.)
Also, what amount of time does he have onscreen?

devincf
05-06-2005, 08:40 PM
could be. I'll have to wait until I see it on the 19th to be sure. But, would Lucas throw that line in there and never mention it again if it were true? Some of the arguements mad ein that thread and the one at theforce.net are valid. Such as, If Palpatine could create force sensitive children why not build an entire army of them? The fact that anakin was worried over Padme's death would be a great reason for Palp's to lie about this power also. On the other hand it would be a great blow to the Jedi. I mean finding out that your prophecy had been fulfilled by genetic enhancement? Makes all of their beliefs go down the tubes.
He didn't create an army because it probably isn't easy. He may have needed to have found the right person.
Lucas never mentioning the line again is what shows that it's true.
Also, how many times does Palpatine really lie to Anakin?

Ahoatam
05-06-2005, 09:05 PM
From my perspective, it doesn't matter.
Immaculate/Jesus Anakin is terrible.
Created Anakin is terrible.
And what of the midichlorians? Using the Jesus example (as in the thread) they don't fit. Midichlorians weren't necessary to create Jesus. Granted, they're another very stupid idea, but an idea that doesn't fit well with the Jesus theory nonetheless.
Actually, I have to agree with Fischer on this one. While I prefer the Palpatine-created version, having to decide between the two is like having to decide if you want a kick in the nuts or toothpicks shoved under your fingernails. I happen to be a fingernail guy, because I like my nuts.
I saw early drafts of TPM script in which Anakin's father was a krayt dragon hunter on Tatooine. It would have worked just fine if Anakin's father was some long-dead hero, which would satisfy both needs: Anakin having the burden of high expectations because of his lineage, and the want of a father-figure, which Obi and Palpatine jockey to replace.

Samurai Mike
05-06-2005, 09:09 PM
It's important to be totally honest here...I watched this (TPM) in Leicester Square(sp) and paid out a shitload of cash to 'enjoy' it...the enjoyment lasted 'til I hit sunlight,,,(AOTC) was in a similar but not so expensive venue...as for where I'll see ROTS, I'll see where I take myself......
You want honesty? I really liked TPM when it came out. There were reasons for this:
1. I was young and naive.
2. I was not the jaded moviegoer I am today.
3. Most importantly, I had never been near an internet messageboard in my life.
Over the years I came to see it for the soulless toy commercial it is, but for a while there I DID like it, and I'm not ashamed to admit it.
AOTC I liked the first time, got caught up in it, cheered when Yoda got his groove on. However, by the second showing I was over it, too many crap scenes to forgive, and it seemed the characters had regressed (Obi-wan and Padme, I'm looking at YOU). I haven't watched it at all since its theatrical run (except for a crappy vcd copy I borrowed from a friend that had hilarious subtitles. "The Jedi will be finished, fella!":)

Jim Pappas/Jabba
05-06-2005, 09:16 PM
Congratulations on being a good guesser, Jabba, but that doesn't mean ANYTHING in the first two prequels sets up the revelation about Palpatine being Anakin's old man.
I don't think I was guessing. It was my take on things once Shmi started talking about the circumstances of Anakin's birth. I mean, it wasn't just coincidence that Qui Gon ended up on Tatooine, it wasn't just coincidence that he met Anakin there. It was part of Palpatine's plan, or that is what I thought. That was how I took it at the time. After all, doesn't Yoda say later to "not underestimate the powers of the Emperor?" I took that line from Ep. 6 and applied that logically to what happens in the PT. I was wrong about one thing I considered, that Qui Gon was secretly a Sith, so I'm not that good of a guesser.

Jim Pappas/Jabba
05-06-2005, 09:23 PM
Actually, I have to agree with Fischer on this one. While I prefer the Palpatine-created version, having to decide between the two is like having to decide if you want a kick in the nuts or toothpicks shoved under your fingernails. I happen to be a fingernail guy, because I like my nuts.
I saw early drafts of TPM script in which Anakin's father was a krayt dragon hunter on Tatooine. It would have worked just fine if Anakin's father was some long-dead hero, which would satisfy both needs: Anakin having the burden of high expectations because of his lineage, and the want of a father-figure, which Obi and Palpatine jockey to replace.
Maybe we need to think that Qui Gon was actually wrong, that it wasn't Anakin who is "the one" it is actually his son, Luke, who did not come from any virgin birth. It could also be considered that the midichlorians themselves defeated the emperor's plan by somehow manipulating Vader into wanting to join with his son, thus leading to the fall of the emperor. It was, after all, love that finally defeated the emperor, not the force. The love of a father for his son. I know I'd like to learn more about these midichlorians, and whether or not they have a form of sentience that could be communicated with on some level. Maybe Lucas will address that with the further Clone Wars cartoons, or the live action series he's planning.

gl2899
05-06-2005, 09:48 PM
SPOILERS
This film has a higher number of laugh out loud moments than the other two. Sadly, they are all in the more intense and emotional scenes. Lucas seems to be emotionally tone deaf.
The movie ended up being what I expected: reasonable eye candy with a groaner of a story. It's full of fairly ridiculous stuff:
The Emperor is a joke (although Palpatine at the opera/ballet is great)
Lucas should have stopped having old men fight
Mace vs Sidious is one of the worst fight scenes ever
The Duel is a huge disappointment. It's actually sort of boring and has none of the emotional heaviness of the one at the end of JEDI.
The opening rescue sequence is like the Jedi Knight Follies
Lucas insists on crowding his frame in every fight scene. There's no emotional component to any of this stuff.
Padme's death is frankly ludicrous
So is Vader as Frankenstein
Vader cries. Twice.
General Grievous is a villain who belongs in a spoof. At one point he wrings his hands because i guess he has no mustache to twirl
There is some good stuff:
McGregor, once the movie picks up steam
There are a couple of choice shots, including SPOILER the one where Vader goes to kill the younglings END SPOILER
Either the effects shots are much better this time than AOTC or I'm just really used to digital stunt men.
Well, sounds like they stuck to the [bleep]ing script.
Padme dies of a [bleep]ing broken heart?
Anakin is more whiny psycho than galactic badass?
General Grievous is Snidely Whiplash in a tin suit?
Yeah, the people that said that the leaked script wasn't indicative of what was to come were wrong.
Thats as believable as Anakin as Christ.
Shouldn't have bought into the hype.
Shame on my thrice.
I hope some people can enjoy it though. My nephew is going to love it. Seeing him enjoy this movie will be worth it to me. But I am just not the target audience for Star Wars anymore.
*edited because I swear too much*

Bailey
05-06-2005, 09:56 PM
Maybe we need to think that Qui Gon was actually wrong, that it wasn't Anakin who is "the one" it is actually his son, Luke, who did not come from any virgin birth. It could also be considered that the midichlorians themselves defeated the emperor's plan by somehow manipulating Vader into wanting to join with his son, thus leading to the fall of the emperor. It was, after all, love that finally defeated the emperor, not the force. The love of a father for his son. I know I'd like to learn more about these midichlorians, and whether or not they have a form of sentience that could be communicated with on some level. Maybe Lucas will address that with the further Clone Wars cartoons, or the live action series he's planning.
or maybe lucas just didn't know exactly how it was going to play out either-- and during the course of writing it he painted himself into some corners that were resolved less than satisfactorily. it happens in single screenplays all the time, let alone a story that takes place over six. that wouldn't be the worst of the PT's faults. whether palpatine helped to conceive anakin or not, it's still contrived. I don't see why palpatine helping would make it less so, as it just adds another level to it (and takes more of the human element out of anakin's failure not to mention further complicates the "prophecy".) I think if it's only a single line in the movie then fatboy's interpretation is still a possibility, at least for those of us who may want to willfully ignore the added twist. I don't mind ambiguity- but to detail the whole midichlorian\immaculate conception\prophecy thing and still leave it ambiguous seems really dumb.

Jim Pappas/Jabba
05-07-2005, 12:02 AM
GL knew exactly how it was going to play out. He's had this whole vision in his head for many years.
Also, I think maybe many of us are taking all of this way too seriously. Star Wars is a movie series, that is all that it is. It is popular entertainment, not something that is going to get food into the bellies of the poor and starving on this planet. We need to maintain perspective here.

Timmay
05-07-2005, 12:49 AM
"Maybe we need to think that Qui Gon was actually wrong, that it wasn't Anakin who is "the one" it is actually his son, Luke, who did not come from any virgin birth."
But it wasn't Luke that killed the emperor, it was Anakin, hence destoying the Dark Side and such.
I just had to chime in at least once on this. Personally, I tried to not get too excited about this last episode, but as a 27 year old with older brothers who grew up with Star Wars toys all around me and having Return of the Jedi as my seminal movie event of my childhood it's impossible. We're supposed to see Anakin turn into Darth freaking Vader here! You can't blow that, you can't.....you can't.....
But I digress, back to the discussion......

Russ Fischer
05-07-2005, 01:12 AM
We're supposed to see Anakin turn into Darth freaking Vader here! You can't blow that, you can't.....you can't.....
I think the last thing I say on this entire topic has to be:
"Noooooooooooooooooo!"

The Sphinx
05-07-2005, 01:44 AM
So, does Palpatine or Dooku (or anybody else for that matter) take responsibility for the death of Shmi?

Barry Woodward
05-07-2005, 01:48 AM
It is popular entertainment, not something that is going to get food into the bellies of the poor and starving on this planet.Actually, from a certain point of view, it does. Lucas has held special screenings for each of the prequels and donates all the proceeds to various charities.

theslik1
05-07-2005, 03:56 AM
The thing that's most surprising to me is that no one is really spending much time talking about The Duel. THIS is the moment we've been waiting for since the end of the second act of SW:ANH. We meet again, at last. The circle is now complete; when I left you, I was but the learner, now I am the master.
And now the people who've watched The Duel aren't even mentioning it as one of the high points of the film, as particularly emotional or even memorable. That's a horrible sign.
The first horrible sign, of course, was the opening crawl for TPM. In retrospect, that told us everything we needed to know about the cynical, self-indulgent pointlessness of the entire PT. ROTS is simply the natural culmination of a collosal waste of film-making resources and the ultimate "fuck you" from Lucas, who seemed determined from the start to force feed his extremely beige vision of Star Wars to the masses. It's really pretty simple...Lucas had the pick of many excellent story ideas and every conceivable technical resource at his disposal to ensure thoughtful, well crafted movies. Those factors alone make the final product inexcusable...beautiful high-tech bilgewater, deliberately and defiantly thrust in our faces by a man who was sure we'd pay for it no matter what. He was right, twice. And he'll be right again this time.
It would be interesting to see how this would've all played out if ROTS actually were a first rate film. The disconnect between it and the first two prequels would be too jarring I think, and that would've definitively cast the Prequel Trilogy as a failure (regardless of the box office). It makes you wonder if George had to "Lucasize" parts of the movie...including The Duel...to ensure that the tone of mediocrity remained at least somewhat uniform from film to film. But enough of my paranoia...
My rant isn't a slam at the fans. I know what it's like to be a fan, and as a fan it's very disappointing to think of what could have been with the right story and the right director.

mastronikolas
05-07-2005, 07:00 AM
How long till the extremely vocal bashers manage to convince people that it's even worse than Menace and Clones and that everybody initially liked it because they got caught up in the hype?
I have my answer: 72 posts. That's how long.

The Dark Shape
05-07-2005, 07:26 AM
The first horrible sign, of course, was the opening crawl for TPM. In retrospect, that told us everything we needed to know about the cynical, self-indulgent pointlessness of the entire PT. ROTS is simply the natural culmination of a collosal waste of film-making resources and the ultimate "fuck you" from Lucas, who seemed determined from the start to force feed his extremely beige vision of Star Wars to the masses. It's really pretty simple...Lucas had the pick of many excellent story ideas and every conceivable technical resource at his disposal to ensure thoughtful, well crafted movies. Those factors alone make the final product inexcusable...beautiful high-tech bilgewater, deliberately and defiantly thrust in our faces by a man who was sure we'd pay for it no matter what. He was right, twice. And he'll be right again this time.
It would be interesting to see how this would've all played out if ROTS actually were a first rate film. The disconnect between it and the first two prequels would be too jarring I think, and that would've definitively cast the Prequel Trilogy as a failure (regardless of the box office). It makes you wonder if George had to "Lucasize" parts of the movie...including The Duel...to ensure that the tone of mediocrity remained at least somewhat uniform from film to film. But enough of my paranoia...
My rant isn't a slam at the fans. I know what it's like to be a fan, and as a fan it's very disappointing to think of what could have been with the right story and the right director.
You know, I'd insert an attempted, witty "So you've seen the film?" comment here, but it works so many times both ways I'm tired of hearing it.

Jim Pappas/Jabba
05-07-2005, 09:01 AM
Actually, from a certain point of view, it does. Lucas has held special screenings for each of the prequels and donates all the proceeds to various charities.
"from a certain point of view" . . . I love it. :)

Dan Whitehead
05-07-2005, 09:19 AM
GL knew exactly how it was going to play out. He's had this whole vision in his head for many years.
Actually, the story of Star Wars has changed constantly since 1977. The prequels are full of things that were made up as they went along.
He may have had the vaguest outline in mind, but the "whole thing" has not been in his head for years at all.
Also, I think maybe many of us are taking all of this way too seriously. Star Wars is a movie series, that is all that it is. It is popular entertainment, not something that is going to get food into the bellies of the poor and starving on this planet. We need to maintain perspective here.
So why do you write about movies and not the poor and starving of this planet?

Hewlett
05-07-2005, 09:27 AM
I'm surprised that no one has mentioned yet that an earliy draft of ROTS had Palpatine telling Anakin flat out that he created him himself. Now does the fact that Lucas took it out mean he threw out the idea completely to go with the immaculate conception/Chosen One idea, or did he just not want to spell out Palpatine's hand in Anakin's creation and leave it up to the audience to make the connection?
//shrugs

Jim Pappas/Jabba
05-07-2005, 10:04 AM
Actually, the story of Star Wars has changed constantly since 1977. The prequels are full of things that were made up as they went along.
He may have had the vaguest outline in mind, but the "whole thing" has not been in his head for years at all.
So why do you write about movies and not the poor and starving of this planet?
And upon what are you basing your belief that the prequels are full of things that were made up as they went along? That is just so wrong. GL has had the entire story as an idea in his mind, since day one. He has said this himself many times, and he is meticulous and does nothing without much planning and foresight. I suggest you do a little research.
As for the remark about my writing about the poor and starving? Ok, here we go:
Hey! Poor! Stop being poor, fools!
Hey! Staving! Go eat something!
There, I just wrote about them. . . .:)

Orin_Quon
05-07-2005, 10:07 AM
That was such an odd thing to say. How does that imply stupidity?
Because it was written by Devin.
Perhaps the stupidity bit was your take when reading it from Devin's post
You don´t even have to read it. You should just know.
Yeah, call bullshit. I am sorry, but you can't argue with reality. The REALITY is that Palpatine DID IN FACT have something to do with the birth of Anakin, and that it was his machinations that led to the creation of Darth Vader. Goddammit, but it is all there on the screen. I cannot believe that Sean (Fett) and gravedigger couldn't see this coming. I fucking saw it coming, and I have discussed this ad nauseum with my friends over the past several YEARS. And as for asking GL, it is NOT IRRELEVANT, since Star Wars is HIS creation. Some of us are, apparently, more intuitive than others. I can't help it that this is so.
Dude, shut up. Go to TheForce.net or something.
GL knew exactly how it was going to play out. He's had this whole vision in his head for many years.
Then...
Also, I think maybe many of us are taking all of this way too seriously.
Hilarious.
Jim, Waker, join Barry Woodward in the Ignore List.

Dan Whitehead
05-07-2005, 10:10 AM
And upon what are you basing your belief that the prequels are full of things that were made up as they went along? That is just so wrong. GL has had the entire story as an idea in his mind, since day one. He has said this himself many times, and he is meticulous and does nothing without much planning and foresight. I suggest you do a little research.
The fact that I wrote an adaptation of Attack of the Clones, and saw the constant revisions to the script as entire scenes and concepts were dropped, altered and changed during production.
Check out the very first seeds of Star Wars. Anakin Starkiller and the Book of Whills. The story has evolved and changed, with Lucas picking and dumping ideas along the way, from day one.
And since Luke only got a sister when Carrie Fisher wanted her character to be more important in Return of the Jedi, I think it's pretty obvious that this isn't some "carved in stone" saga that Lucas is dutifully telling.

Jim Pappas/Jabba
05-07-2005, 10:22 AM
The fact that I wrote an adaptation of Attack of the Clones, and saw the constant revisions to the script as entire scenes and concepts were dropped, altered and changed during production.
Check out the very first seeds of Star Wars. Anakin Starkiller and the Book of Whills. The story has evolved and changed, with Lucas picking and dumping ideas along the way, from day one.
And since Luke only got a sister when Carrie Fisher wanted her character to be more important in Return of the Jedi, I think it's pretty obvious that this isn't some "carved in stone" saga that Lucas is dutifully telling.
I didnn't say anything was "carved in stone," I said he has had the idea and vision in his head since day one. As with just about anything, the details are going to be processed as they go along, which is all you are saying. We're not really disagreeing here, just looking at it from different perspectives.

Waker
05-07-2005, 11:21 AM
Yes but that's bullshit. As someone said earlier in this thread, Lucas originally wrote that Anakin's father was a Krayt Dragon hunter or something.

gl2899
05-07-2005, 11:59 AM
Please Jim Pappas/Jabba, you seem like a smart guy, you have to know that as poorly as the films fit together that Lucas (although he had a rough outline in his head) has done this by the seat of his pants.
You have to give props to Lucas, he is the greatest spin doctor and marketing genius of all time.

Jim Pappas/Jabba
05-07-2005, 12:24 PM
You don't a thing abouut George Lucas if you think the PT was "by the seat of his pants." Jesus, just read some of the interviews he's given over the years where he discusses the PT. Sure, certain details had to be, by necessity, "on the fly," but the overall story line has been in his head for many years.

LightningLouie
05-07-2005, 01:04 PM
You don't a thing abouut George Lucas if you think the PT was "by the seat of his pants." Jesus, just read some of the interviews he's given over the years where he discusses the PT. Sure, certain details had to be, by necessity, "on the fly," but the overall story line has been in his head for many years.
From what I've seen from both fansites and official materials, like Bouzereau's Annotated Screenplays, the "overall storyline" has changed so much over the years that the final version is virtually unrecognizable from the original conception.
Answer me this: Why is it essential for fans to maintain the myth that Lucas planned everything out in advance back in 1974? Film, unlike books, is a medium based on contingency. Stuff is always going to be going in and out of a movie based on the availability of performers, the amount of money involved, and totally random events. On top of that, some ideas just become unworkable or silly or just plain bad over time. I'm sure that Lucas had a much bigger role planned for Jar Jar over the course of the prequels, but minimized his presence when it became apparent that everyone --EVERYONE!-- hated the shit out of the character, and not just rabid fanboys and movie critics.
There's no shame in enjoying an epic saga, even if the author was just making it up as he or she went along. What matters is that the author maintains a certain level of quality and consistency over the course of the story-- i.e., "as long as it's good." Insisting on a single unifying vision, especially as it pertains to characters like Boba Fett, Maul, and Grevious --all more the products of toy licensing conferences than some grand Joseph Campbell mythopoeic crap-- suggests an inability to enjoy the movies for what they are. Or maybe you aren't enjoying them all that much to begin with? Search your feelings, you know this to be true...
Besides, as everyone knows by now, Lucas swiped the plot and characters from Jack Kirby's New Gods comics and the Kinks' Part 1 Lola Versus Powerman and the Money-Go-Round.

Litmus Configuration
05-07-2005, 01:05 PM
You have to give props to Lucas, he is the greatest spin doctor and marketing genius of all time.
Absolutely 100% correct. (Well, aside from certain dictators throughout history.)
I guess if Lucas really had the whole story figured out 30 years ago, he would never have even publicly discussed 9 films, then 12 films, then 9 films again, then 6 films. And yet he did. He said in interviews that EPs 7, 8 and 9 would be about a character who survives JEDI. So much for that story. It wasn't until 1996 that Lucas first publicly stated that the whole Saga would be comprised of only six films, nearly 20 years after the first film hit screens and became a global pop culture phenomenon (contrary to apologists trying to downplay the impact of STAR WARS in order to make the lackluster Prequels look better in comparison.)
I don't believe a damn thing Lucas or his cronies say anymore. I can only look at his work and judge it on its own merits.

Litmus Configuration
05-07-2005, 01:07 PM
Great post, Louie!

Jim Pappas/Jabba
05-07-2005, 01:16 PM
I can't understand how any of you believe that George Lucas "made up" the plots of the PT as he went along. Jeesh. I'm not arguing about this anymore. I know what the truth is, and I'm happy with my understanding of reality. If some of you want to think what it is you think, don't let me try and convince you otherwise.

gl2899
05-07-2005, 01:30 PM
Same here, Jim.
Let's just agree to disagree. Even though 30 years of interviews with Lucas, documentaries and early scripts back up my theory ;).
*edit to note:
It bugs me that Lucas recently said that eps 7-9 were fabricated by fanboys and the press. Even though his comments on the three trilogies are well doucmented.
Maybe he is starting to believe in the Jedi mind trick.
LUCAS: I never said I had plans for episodes VII through VIII
FANBOYS: You never said you had plans for episodes VII through VIII

Litmus Configuration
05-07-2005, 01:48 PM
I'm not arguing about this anymore.
Good. Because you've obviously closed your mind to any other viewpoint but your own.

LightningLouie
05-07-2005, 01:48 PM
I guess if Lucas really had the whole story figured out 30 years ago, he would never have even publicly discussed 9 films, then 12 films, then 9 films again, then 6 films. And yet he did. He said in interviews that EPs 7, 8 and 9 would be about a character who survives JEDI. So much for that story.
I often wonder how much of that was Lucas and how much of it was Gary Kurtz. I'm not sure to what extent Kurtz was involved creatively (though his absence is felt in ROTJ), but I always got the feeling that he saw the SW saga as more of a grand tragic epic with a decades-long story arc than Lucas' fairy tale in space conception. In one interview, I recall Kurtz saying that only Leia would survive and she would end up in Episode XII as the "People's Quen" after the Emperor had been deposed. Darth Vader was always going to die in Episode VI (and possibly Luke with him), but the Empire would exist for some time after, albeit in a reduced form. The prequel trilogy would be largely disconnected from the other movies, with the first film set generations before the rest of the story, dealing with the foundation of the Jedi Order. But there's no real evidence to substantiate any of these claims, and Kurtz was probably just drawing on conversations he'd had with Lucas back in the '70s.

LightningLouie
05-07-2005, 01:51 PM
Great post, Louie!
Thanks. I've been here for a while, just trying to get my bearings straight. (Also, I've rediscovered that either I'm a terrible typist or my keyboard is a POS.)

LightningLouie
05-07-2005, 02:10 PM
I can't understand how any of you believe that George Lucas "made up" the plots of the PT as he went along. Jeesh. I'm not arguing about this anymore. I know what the truth is, and I'm happy with my understanding of reality. If some of you want to think what it is you think, don't let me try and convince you otherwise.
Actually, I could swear that I just read an interview in which Lucas said that most of the prequel trilogy was "filler," and that Ep. III was the real "meat" of the PT. In other words, most of the events in Eps. I and II were just a means of killing time before Anakin's fateful lava slalom.
Believe what you want. I think Lucas had the idea of doing a big outer space adventure in his head back in the '70s, but that was about as specific as it got. He narrowed down his focus by reading SF novels and Marvel Comics, and possibly Joseph Campbell as well, but probably more Castaneda. I suspect the theme of kids redeeming the father probably didn't occur to him until well in the pre-production of Empire, and I seriously doubt Leia was even going to be a blood relation until sometime between Empire and Jedi, regardless of the rumors about Fisher wanting a bigger role. In short, most of the transcendent themes were things Lucas came up with after 1977 and applied retroactively to the saga through the magic of filmmaking and the gullibility of fans who couldn't accept that he'd improvised most of the storyline.
Look, just consider this: In the first draft of Star Wars, Darth Vader, the principal villain of the OT, the central character of the entire saga, is a minor Imperial functionary who speaks two lines and is never seen or mentioned again.

Miasta
05-07-2005, 02:42 PM
Look, just consider this: In the first draft of Star Wars, Darth Vader, the principal villain of the OT, the central character of the entire saga, is a minor Imperial functionary who speaks two lines and is never seen or mentioned again.
Wouldn't it be cool if Lucas let some ILM underlings or intern types at Lucas film, who have been waiting in the wings, getting coffee and stuff for the senior artist for years, have a go at doing an animated version of the first draft of Star Wars just for a goof? Well, woudn't it? No? Fine! I'd buy it, or watch it on The Cartoon Network! Cary on...

Leto II
05-07-2005, 03:07 PM
I often wonder how much of that was Lucas and how much of it was Gary Kurtz. I'm not sure to what extent Kurtz was involved creatively (though his absence is felt in ROTJ), but I always got the feeling that he saw the SW saga as more of a grand tragic epic with a decades-long story arc than Lucas' fairy tale in space conception. In one interview, I recall Kurtz saying that only Leia would survive and she would end up in Episode XII as the "People's Quen" after the Emperor had been deposed. Darth Vader was always going to die in Episode VI (and possibly Luke with him), but the Empire would exist for some time after, albeit in a reduced form. The prequel trilogy would be largely disconnected from the other movies, with the first film set generations before the rest of the story, dealing with the foundation of the Jedi Order. But there's no real evidence to substantiate any of these claims, and Kurtz was probably just drawing on conversations he'd had with Lucas back in the '70s.
To wit, from Cinescape Online, circa the summer of 1999:
Kurtz Reveals 'SW 1-9' Plot
Gary Kurtz, the producer of the original versions of Star Wars: A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back, spoke at a Sci-Fi Expo convention audience in Plano, Texas yesterday. After reportedly offering up a mixed review of The Phantom Menace, Kurtz shared the original plans for all nine episodes of the Star Wars saga circa 1980, according to TheForce.net. When Lucas changed course with Return of the Jedi, Kurtz opted to leave the Star Wars saga and produce The Dark Crystal with Jim Henson. What follows is the fan site's description of what Kurtz allegedly relayed (no doubt to a room full of stunned Star Wars fans), and a very cool glimpse into what might have been:
EPISODE 1: Was to focus on the origins of
the Jedi Knights and how they are initiated and
trained.
EPISODE 2: Introduction and development of
Obi-Wan Kenobi.
EPISODE 3: Introduction and life of Vader.
EPISODE 4: There were seven different drafts
of the film. At one point, they pursued buying
the rights to Hidden Fortress because of the
strong similarities. At one point, Luke was a
female, Han was Luke's brother, Luke's father
was the one in prison (interesting point for
some debates) and the film featured 40
wookies.
EPISODE 5: Once written, the screenplay of
Empire is almost exactly what is seen on
screen. The only cut scenes were those
involving wampas in the rebel base (cut
because of time and unsolved technical
glitches) and about two minutes of Luke/Yoda
Jedi training with no real dialog.
EPISODE 6: Leia was to be elected "Queen of
her people" leaving her isolated. Han was to
die. Luke confronted Vader and went on with
his life alone. Leia was not to be Luke's sister.
EPISODE 7: Third trilogy was to focus on
Luke's life as a Jedi, with very few details
planned out.
EPISODE 8: Luke's sister (not Leia) appears
from another part of the galaxy.
EPISODE 9: First appearance of the Emperor.
And then there's this passage in the 1980 work Once Upon A Galaxy: A Journal of The Making of Empire Strikes Back, by Alan Arnold (pp. 247-48):
Alan Arnold: Tell me more about the overall concept of the Star Wars saga.
George Lucas: There are essentially nine films in a series of three trilogies.The first trilogy is about the young Ben Kenobi and the early life of Luke's father when Luke was a little boy. This trilogy takes place some twenty years before the second trilogy, which includes Star Wars and Empire. About a year or two passes between each story of the trilogy and about twenty years pass between the trilogies. The entire saga spans about fifty-five years.
AA: How much is written?
GL: I have story treatments on all nine. I also have voluminous notes, histories, and other material I've developed for various purposes. Some of it will be used, some not. Originally, when I wrote Star Wars, it developed into an epic on the scale of War and Peace, so big I couldn't possibly make it into a movie. So I cut it in half, but it was still too big, so I cut each half into three parts. I then had material for six movies. After the success of Star Wars I added another trilogy, but stopped there, primarily because reality took over. After all, it takes three years to prepare and make a Star Wars picture. How many years are left? So I'm still left with three trilogies of nine films. At two hours each, that's about eighteen hours of film!
Straight from the equine's embouchement. Plus there're other Nine-Film LucasQuotes™ in other sources, like his Splinter of the Mind's Eye foreword.

Ahoatam
05-07-2005, 04:20 PM
From Time.com, Saturday, Apr. 20, 2002:
http://www.time.com/time/sampler/article/0,8599,232440,00.html
For all his film interests—not just the companies but the extension of Raiders' Indiana Jones character into two more features and a TV series—he was, and remains, a doting, full-time dad. But he had a neglected child, the Star Wars saga, that needed his help in growing up. Lucas began writing the new trilogy, starting with Phantom Menace, in 1994.
Furthermore, Lucas says in the commentary of ANH DVD that he wrote a backstory for each character, and that fed into what eventually made the prequel story. He didn't have 6 or 9 ready-to-go screenplays, as is the popular belief.
I, too, subscribe to the paint-himself-in-corner viewpoint.

Amphibatron
05-07-2005, 04:31 PM
And upon what are you basing your belief that the prequels are full of things that were made up as they went along? That is just so wrong. GL has had the entire story as an idea in his mind, since day one. He has said this himself many times, and he is meticulous and does nothing without much planning and foresight. I suggest you do a little research.
If you look at early pre-production artwork of episode 1 you will see that Qui-Gon is nowhere to be seen. Obi-Wan had Qui-Gon's role all to himself. Before Episode II Lucas had no idea what a Dooku was. Why else did he have his design team coming up with different sorts of Sith apprentices for episode II before he came up with Dooku? Grievous? Nope, no idea of Grievous until he told his art department to design a droid general. Look at the make-up job on Palpatine in episode II and notice the differences in his appearance in Episode III. The reason for the change is because Lucas at first was flirting with the idea that Sidious would wind up looking like the Emperor of ROTJ because the darkside had slowly degraded his appearance. He obviously changed his mind on that and now Mace is responsible.
If you look at all of these major storypoints of the prequels: Qui-Gon, Dooku, Sidious' appearance and hell, just read a making of book you'll realise that Lucas had the vaguest outline and the rest has been made up as he went along. I mean he said himself in a recent interview that Episode 1 had about 20 % of whatever basic storypoints he worked out years ago. That leaves 80% made up on the fly. The same percerntage for Epiosde II. Only Sith seems to encompass the majority of the back story Lucas originally planned out.

Ahoatam
05-07-2005, 05:11 PM
Back on topic:
The script seemed to have a lot of not-so-subtle remarks that related directly to today's political and military situation. Until now, Star Wars has really been a reflection on past political/military conflicts (like the Third Reich) and this marks a noticable turn towards current events.
How much of this carried over into the final film, and how much of it do you think audiences will pick up on? In the somewhat divided political state the US is in now, does Lucas risk alienating a portion of his fan base by comparing the President to the Emporer? Comments from those who have seen the film, please.

Waker
05-07-2005, 05:18 PM
If they support Bush, they deserve to be alienated. Here's hoping they can never enjoy the films again.

Litmus Configuration
05-07-2005, 05:30 PM
I don't think it's obvious enough for Bush supporters to notice. It's not as clear-cut as, say, Sam Rockwell aping Dubya as Zaphod "Un-dumb" Beeblebrox in THE HITCHHIKER'S GUIDE TO THE GALAXY.
There was another strange bit of modern wording in EP3 though (on par with "The Old Folks Home" in EP2) and I can't quite remember the line. It's something Obi-Wan says just before he leaves Anakin at the shipyards on Coruscant. I can't seem to find it in my copy of the script. Anyone?

Bailey
05-07-2005, 05:56 PM
when obi wan and anakin part ways after the opening battle, obi wan makes reference to anakin having to be the "poster boy." when they separate for the "last" time there's not really anything modern (wild bantha chase is the closest thing.)

Litmus Configuration
05-07-2005, 06:03 PM
when obi wan and anakin part ways after the opening battle, obi wan makes reference to anakin having to be the "poster boy." when they separate for the "last" time there's not really anything modern (wild bantha chase is the closest thing.)
Yep, you're right. "Poster boy." Weird.

Ahoatam
05-07-2005, 07:17 PM
If they support Bush, they deserve to be alienated. Here's hoping they can never enjoy the films again.
You know, I'm not ignorant to the fact my political leanings are in the minority around here, and I'm certainly not going to make any futile effort to change that. I do wonder why so many outspoken members of the "Party of the people" are so bent on insulting those who don't see eye to eye on them, especially on completely unrelated issues.
Me? I'm all for bipartisanship in enjoyment of arts and entertainment.

LightningLouie
05-07-2005, 07:51 PM
Wouldn't it be cool if Lucas let some ILM underlings or intern types at Lucas film, who have been waiting in the wings, getting coffee and stuff for the senior artist for years, have a go at doing an animated version of the first draft of Star Wars just for a goof? Well, woudn't it? No? Fine! I'd buy it, or watch it on The Cartoon Network! Cary on...
Hell no, I'd pay to see that.
Someone actually wrote a fan script of A Princess of Ondos, the proposed second installment of The Adventures of The Starkiller, mentioned in passing at the end of Lucas' first draft of Star Wars:
http://www.starwarz.com/starkiller/fan/princess_of_ondos.htm

Eschatos
05-07-2005, 11:38 PM
I think you're saying that Kenobi should have been the central character of the PT. I couldn't agree more.
That's exactly what I was saying. (I was more focused on why Anakin/Vader should have been a supporting character in that post, so I understand the cautiousness of your post.) If you think about it, actually, the films could be much more solid as they if they were edited to focus more on Kenobi and less on Skywalker. The whole problem with the PT is that Lucas, even during Ep. I, was too concerned with giving Anakin significant screen coverage. Most of Anakin's involvment in I and II are just subplots on steroids anyway ...
Also, if they had gone that route, it would have made for a stronger saga. The PT could have been the story of the benevolent father failing to deliver his son from a path of evil and the OT would have been the negative of that: the benevolent son delivers the father from that path. The ramifications just cascade from there ... especially when you consider the tension it would have given the Yoda and Sidious relationship by making them the mentors of the central figures in the story: the patriarchs.

LightningLouie
05-07-2005, 11:41 PM
Straight from the equine's embouchement. Plus there're other Nine-Film LucasQuotes™ in other sources, like his Splinter of the Mind's Eye foreword.
Thanks. I'd also read some of those details in the IGN interview from... Jeebus, some time ago.

Waker
05-07-2005, 11:45 PM
You know, I'm not ignorant to the fact my political leanings are in the minority around here, and I'm certainly not going to make any futile effort to change that. I do wonder why so many outspoken members of the "Party of the people" are so bent on insulting those who don't see eye to eye on them, especially on completely unrelated issues.
Me? I'm all for bipartisanship in enjoyment of arts and entertainment.
I never said, or even implied, what "party" I'm of in the post you responded to. I'm apolitical, but I do think Bush and his supporters deserve only the worst. I do like the "voice of reason" arguments from the right, though, where they say people who hate them simply don't see eye to eye with them, when in fact, most people who hate them hate them, and rightly so, because they're evil incarnate.

Eschatos
05-07-2005, 11:46 PM
Back on topic:
The script seemed to have a lot of not-so-subtle remarks that related directly to today's political and military situation. Until now, Star Wars has really been a reflection on past political/military conflicts (like the Third Reich) and this marks a noticable turn towards current events.
Technically, the Empire was pretty topical for the Cold War period. Also, considering the sequels were released in the post-Vietnam era, the Emperor has always been topical (Lucas has stated many times that Sidious is a fictional version of Nixon).

LightningLouie
05-08-2005, 12:27 AM
Back on topic:
The script seemed to have a lot of not-so-subtle remarks that related directly to today's political and military situation. Until now, Star Wars has really been a reflection on past political/military conflicts (like the Third Reich) and this marks a noticable turn towards current events.
How much of this carried over into the final film, and how much of it do you think audiences will pick up on? In the somewhat divided political state the US is in now, does Lucas risk alienating a portion of his fan base by comparing the President to the Emporer? Comments from those who have seen the film, please.
It's nothing new from Lucas; the political subtext was there from the beginning, though it got submerged as the movies went on. The Emperor was conceived of as a Nixon figure, a crafty politico turned paranoid and inaccessible, and there was always the idea of a technologically superior military force being thwarted by primitive indigenous guerillas, like the U.S. armed forces in Vietnam. (Remember, Lucas was originally going to follow up American Graffiti with Apocalypse Now, so the Ewoks were probably his way of exploring that theme after losing control of the project to Coppola.) In one of the deleted scenes of Luke and Biggs on Tatooine, Biggs expresses concern that the Empire will draft Luke into service. Star Wars is definitely a product of the Watergate era, but it came out during the Carter administration, so everybody associates it with the goofy, hedonistic late '70s. By the '80s, Reagan and his speechwriters were using Lucas' imagery as a metaphor for the Cold War, something he probably never anticipated or desired. He never got over the use of "Star Wars" as a collective term for orbital missile defense. In Ep. I, Lucas repays Reagan in kind by naming the perennially befuddled and dim-witted Trade Federation leader Nute Gunray; the "Nute" comes from Knute Rockne All American, one of Reagan's best-known films, and as for "Gunray," just transpose the syllables. For a guy who celebrates forgiveness and reconciliation, Lucas can sure hold a grudge; after all, he named the second banana bad guy in Willow after Pauline Kael, who bashed Star Wars back in 1977, eleven years earlier.
I would be genuinely surprised if most viewers made any sort of connections between the storyline in Ep. III and current events, mainly because it sounds as though the political aspects of Palpatine's rise to power are dowplayed in favor of balls-to-the-wall action. (Besides, as we all know, Lucas had it planned out in advance all along, so any parallels are purely coincidental.) In all likelihood, there will be one or two batshit crazy right-wing Medved types who label Lucas a traitor after making all those good movies about upholding conservative values, but most people won't care or notice. And they'd be wrong about Lucas' politics, too; despite being insanely wealthy, he still seems to regard himself as a radical experimental filmmaker and unreconstructed liberal who managed to beat the Man at his own game, acquiring his independence one marketing license at a time. (Insert sarcastic comment about billionaire entertainer lecturing about the dangers of attachment and materialism here.) But even if he wanted to make Ep. III overtly political, I doubt he'd be canny or subtle enough to pull it off, even in a dorky Star Trek kinda way.

Ahoatam
05-08-2005, 12:35 AM
Well put, Louie, thanks. That seems to be a perfectly reasonable explanation and by no means a stretch. It's a subtext that fits perfectly.
Now, if you don't mind, I'll go back to being evil incarnate because of my politcal alignment. Hail Satan!

LightningLouie
05-08-2005, 12:35 AM
Yep, you're right. "Poster boy." Weird.
Well now I can really understand Vader's rage. If I'd gone from being an interstellar celebrity whose image adorned the walls of hot, scantily-clad, blue tentacle-headed space chicks the galaxy over to a fried husk with prosthetic limbs in a gimp suit, I'd be mightily pissed.

The Sphinx
05-08-2005, 12:49 AM
a fried husk with prosthetic limbs in a gimp suitThat's the best description of Vader ever.

gl2899
05-08-2005, 12:55 AM
Well put, Louie, thanks. That seems to be a perfectly reasonable explanation and by no means a stretch. It's a subtext that fits perfectly.
Now, if you don't mind, I'll go back to being evil incarnate because of my politcal alignment. Hail Satan!
This made me chuckle.
I notice Jim Pappas dissapeared :( Come back Jim!
Please?

Andrew Ellis
05-08-2005, 01:05 AM
Maybe he's asleep or out for the night, like the rest of the normals.

Mr. Creosote
05-08-2005, 03:08 AM
For a guy who celebrates forgiveness and reconciliation, Lucas can sure hold a grudge; after all, he named the second banana bad guy in Willow after Pauline Kael, who bashed Star Wars back in 1977, eleven years earlier.
Come on, that was obviously just joking around with naming bad guys after the critics. There's also the two-headed monster known as the Ebersisk, and while I'm pretty sure they didn't like Howard the Duck, they were very kind to most of his films.

Samurai Mike
05-08-2005, 03:28 AM
So, does anyone know when we're gonna see some proper reviews up here?

Holy Diver
05-08-2005, 03:35 AM
Here's a question: Is google broken where you are?
Just askin'. ;)

Samurai Mike
05-08-2005, 03:46 AM
Here's a question: Is google broken where you are?
Just askin'. ;)
I mean proper CHUD reviews. Naturally.

Jim Pappas/Jabba
05-08-2005, 11:48 AM
If you look at early pre-production artwork of episode 1 you will see that Qui-Gon is nowhere to be seen. Obi-Wan had Qui-Gon's role all to himself. Before Episode II Lucas had no idea what a Dooku was. Why else did he have his design team coming up with different sorts of Sith apprentices for episode II before he came up with Dooku? Grievous? Nope, no idea of Grievous until he told his art department to design a droid general. Look at the make-up job on Palpatine in episode II and notice the differences in his appearance in Episode III. The reason for the change is because Lucas at first was flirting with the idea that Sidious would wind up looking like the Emperor of ROTJ because the darkside had slowly degraded his appearance. He obviously changed his mind on that and now Mace is responsible.
If you look at all of these major storypoints of the prequels: Qui-Gon, Dooku, Sidious' appearance and hell, just read a making of book you'll realise that Lucas had the vaguest outline and the rest has been made up as he went along. I mean he said himself in a recent interview that Episode 1 had about 20 % of whatever basic storypoints he worked out years ago. That leaves 80% made up on the fly. The same percerntage for Epiosde II. Only Sith seems to encompass the majority of the back story Lucas originally planned out.
What is it you think I'm saying? Again, the idea for the PT has been in his head, the general storyline. I'm not talking about the nuts and bolts.

Litmus Configuration
05-08-2005, 12:02 PM
GL knew exactly how it was going to play out. He's had this whole vision in his head for many years.
Your own words. Nice backpedalling.

Amphibatron
05-08-2005, 02:56 PM
What is it you think I'm saying? Again, the idea for the PT has been in his head, the general storyline. I'm not talking about the nuts and bolts.
This is what I think your saying...
Originally Posted by Jim Pappas/Jabba:
And upon what are you basing your belief that the prequels are full of things that were made up as they went along? That is just so wrong. GL has had the entire story as an idea in his mind, since day one. He has said this himself many times, and he is meticulous and does nothing without much planning and foresight. I suggest you do a little research.
Which is the exact quote I originally replied to and which is saying something completely different than what you are saying now. You asked why people believe the prequels are full of things made up as he went along and I gave you numerous examples.

mastronikolas
05-09-2005, 09:49 AM
I finally saw it.
It's a very powerful piece of film-making and the first time we get real characters and real emotion in the prequel trilogy. The ending is near-perfect. Vader being entombed in the suit, Yoda's humility after failing the Jedi and the Republic, the delivery of the twins. Amazing stuff.
It's perfectly obvious that the Jedi were responsible for their own fall, paying the price for being blinded , dogmatic and overconfident.
And Lucas doesn't shy away from the fact that his movie is about brother turning against brother. The characters face horrible dilemmas and no one walks away unscathed.
The opening battle is awe-inspiring. Words can do it no justice. The only thing I can say is that the reveal of the hundreds of capital ships fighting far surpasses the reveal of the Star Destroyer in Episode IV.
Grievous is a total red herring and a wild goose chase for Obi-Wan. If you expect that, you'll like his part (which is a very minor one). If you expect the death machine from the cartoons, you'll be disappointed.
And there's a wickedly irreverent homage to E.T.
Finally, I predict that there will be a lot of wee ones crying their little hearts out when Anakin starts burning alive. It's very graphic and heart-wrenching. This is definitely not a movie for small children.

Alan "Nordling" Cerny
05-09-2005, 09:58 AM
Oddly enough, mastronikolas, of all the CHUD posters yours was the one I was waiting for. Thanks for that. Can't wait...

Litmus Configuration
05-09-2005, 10:56 AM
And there's a wickedly irreverent homage to E.T.
I missed that. Where is it?

mastronikolas
05-09-2005, 11:01 AM
Yoda's departure from Kashyyk:
"I'll miss you Tarful. I'll miss you Chewbacca". And then he blasts off in his little rocket ship!
By the way, I saw the film version and there was no scene depicting Wat Tambor's epic fight against anakin. Was that scene in the DLP version?

cognizant
05-09-2005, 11:06 AM
Yoda saying he'll miss people doesnt sound..Yoda-ish...(oO)

mastronikolas
05-09-2005, 11:08 AM
Considering the stress he's under and the fact that they helped him survive and escape, I'll accept it.
Unless it means that he was faking his speech impediment all the time!

cognizant
05-09-2005, 11:16 AM
Well, as a 'thank you', its acceptable, but I thought he was beyond this material world and 'missing' people, and all that stuff. But then again, I guess he doesnt fully come to grips with the SW Buddhist-lite notion of reality until episode 5.

Litmus Configuration
05-09-2005, 11:40 AM
Yoda's departure from Kashyyk:
"I'll miss you Tarful. I'll miss you Chewbacca". And then he blasts off in his little rocket ship!
I guess the close-up on Yoda's face as the hatch shuts closed is what really makes it an homage to E.T., if that's what it really is. The good-byes and ship take-off also work as homage but are also necessary to getting Yoda off Kashyyk.
By the way, I saw the film version and there was no scene depicting Wat Tambor's epic fight against anakin. Was that scene in the DLP version?
Wat Tambor was barely in the DLP version. Just enough for the Cult of Wat to jizz their slacks and for the rest of us to roll our eyes.
To be fair, I was actually hoping to see more of Wat before he got diced. I was hoping to have a quick reminder of why I hate this ill-conceived character before he is then thankfully murdered. No such luck. Wat is merely a blur in his demise.

Estel
05-09-2005, 11:56 AM
My take, copied and pasted from a message I wrote someone on the night I saw it. I reserve the right to modify this kneejerk opinion when I see it again with a normal audience on release.
Yeah, it's not so good, but it's not a disaster. This one is particularly frustrating for me, though, because it has entire moments and scenes that DO play, that work emotionally, thematically, or whatever, but are constantly being undermined by glaring problems: poorly written/delivered lines, moments of weird, choppy, meaningless editing (Ben Burtt fucks this movie backasswards just like Clones), small scenelets that are over before they start (the 2nd act is plagued by this), and just mismanaged stuff that could have been great, or at least passable.
It's just so painfully obvious that Lucas' reach exceeds his grasp. There's some great non-verbal bits set to music: I loved the clones turning on the jedi across the galaxy, beautiful score, and a real sense of loss, but it's pretty contextless. Similarly, he goes for this Coppola-esque Birth of the Twins/Birth of Vader intercutting that's really magnificent all by itself (Padme's screams during labor cutting to the absolutely wrecked Anakin screaming as his limbs are re-attached) but it belongs in a different, better movie. He breaks his own SW rules all over the place in this scene (there's actually a POV shot from INSIDE the helmet, we see what a frightening isolation chamber being in the suit is).
McDiarmid is nasty, campy fun, just as he was in ROTJ, and everyone else pretty much acquits themselves admirably. McGregor has fantastic moments, but also many, many others, where he clearly just can't take this bullshit seriously anymore (see his lines to Dooku before they fight). Portman and Christensen are much improved, especially Christensen, who I think does an admirable job with an almost unplayabe character. Who knows why anyone in this movie does anything, other than puppetmaster Lucas.
I thought that much of the duel was really good, actually, contrary to the Chud crew consensus. I actually thought that bar a few lines, the last fourth of the film was a hint of the A-game that Lucas could have brought to the whole deal, back in the day, had he cared to. He clearly took his time with certain sequences (the purge/assault on the temple, the massacre/baptism, oops I mean "Birthing" sequence), and he pretty much went ahead and neglected the connective tissue that makes such sequences make sense, just like in the last film.
Again, before I'm torn to shreds, this is just quick thoughts jotted down after seeing it last week. I actually feel a little nicer to it in the light of day. I'll make up my mind on the 19th.

Amphibatron
05-09-2005, 12:44 PM
Wait, can someone confirm that the Wookiees give Tarzan yells like Chewbacca in Jedi? Please tell me this doesn't actually happen.

Russ Fischer
05-09-2005, 12:46 PM
Wait, can someone confirm that the Wookiees give Tarzan yells like Chewbacca in Jedi? Please tell me this doesn't actually happen.
It does.

mastronikolas
05-09-2005, 12:53 PM
Not in my print. At least not in the foreground.

mastronikolas
05-09-2005, 12:55 PM
...there's actually a POV shot from INSIDE the helmet, we see what a frightening isolation chamber being in the suit is
My favourite shot in the whole film. It really ads depth to Vader asking Luke to remove his helmet, so that he can see him with his own eyes.
My favourite sequences (apart from the amazing opening) were centered on Obi-Wan. His realisation of what he must do, his confrontation of Padme and his final words with Anakin are really strong. Terrific acting by Ewan.

Amphibatron
05-09-2005, 01:08 PM
It does.
Mother of fuck.

Eli Ca$h
05-09-2005, 01:10 PM
I don't think I have much to say about the film that hasn't already been said in this thread. My take is pretty much right in the middle of everything mentioned here. I didn't love it like I wanted to, but I did enjoy it overall.
The sad thing is, I think if Anakin's turn to the dark side had worked, everything else would be forgivable.
My biggest regret about these films will always be that he directed them all himself. He could have stepped aside after TPM and let someone else handle AOTC and ROTS. Considering some of the names that were said to be interested, I don't think we would have seen most of the things that bugged me in those films.
I can't imagine Spielberg doing that crappy space diner scene or the floating fruit scene. I think He would have found some way to make the Anakin-Padme dialogue work. I can't imagine David Fincher having so much droid comedy in ROTS, nor the terrible Windu death/Anakin turns scene. I also can't imagine him having Anakin hop on a droid's head and ride over to continue the duel with Obi-Wan.

Amphibatron
05-09-2005, 01:16 PM
Not in my print. At least not in the foreground.
Does this mean I have to call the theatre and ask them if they are showing the print with the retarded tarzan yell or without it? Seriously, the only theatre getting my money is the one without. I'll be damned if I'll relive the lowest point in the OT come may 19th.

Alan "Nordling" Cerny
05-09-2005, 01:22 PM
Oh c'mon. If you can stomach it on ROTJ, you can stomach it here. It's as if people must have their SW totally humorless. So Lucas can't tell a joke to save his ass, get over it.

Amphibatron
05-09-2005, 01:28 PM
Oh c'mon. If you can stomach it on ROTJ, you can stomach it here. It's as if people must have their SW totally humorless. So Lucas can't tell a joke to save his ass, get over it.
Why should I have to stomach it to begin with? Can't Lucas make one goddamn movie where I don't have to either stomach something , forgive something, overlook something, pretend that didn't happen, fast forward through that part, cover my ears, scratch out my eyes....

Suttytx
05-09-2005, 04:02 PM
The Tarzan yell and the Sarlac burp in ROTJ are the two lowest points of humor in the OT for me. Hate to see it repeated in ROTS.

Samurai Mike
05-09-2005, 05:06 PM
The Tarzan yell and the Sarlac burp in ROTJ are the two lowest points of humor in the OT for me. Hate to see it repeated in ROTS.
The sarlacc burp was okay until Lucas changed the creature to the Penis From Hell. Now it farts instead (and has teeth around its arse, or something).

Litmus Configuration
05-09-2005, 10:03 PM
I thought I might have heard the Tarzan yell buried beneath a shot when a Wookiee jumps on a Seperatist vehicle but it was so covered over with other sound effects and music, I couldn't be sure. (To be honest, most of the Kashyyk stuff didn't really engage me, so I don't remember a lot of the little details.) And yeah, just because the Tarzan yell was in JEDI doesn't mean that it was ever a good idea.

Tom Roberts
05-09-2005, 11:09 PM
91% at Rotten Tomatoes at the moment (22 reviews). That seems pretty strong to me.

devincf
05-10-2005, 01:15 AM
22 reviews is nothing.

wadew1
05-10-2005, 01:33 AM
Yeah, only 200 more reviews for Rottentomatoes to tally up.

Andre Dellamorte
05-10-2005, 02:05 AM
At this point, I'd expect mostly positives, that seems to eb the way of the film right now, but, yeah, you're counting the eggs at this point.

devincf
05-10-2005, 02:11 AM
It'll go fresh, btw. We've been pummeled by the last two so an OK Star Wars film, which this is, will get a good rating. Hell, my review (3000 words. Sorry in advance) will be rated fresh on RT.

Andre Dellamorte
05-10-2005, 02:23 AM
And since both previous PT films have fresh ratings, I think this one should easily follow. What that has to do with anything...

Andrew Ellis
05-10-2005, 02:50 AM
I think the Tarzan yell is pretty funny if it's now presented to have a history as a traditional Wookiee battle cry.

Tom Roberts
05-10-2005, 06:38 AM
22 reviews is nothing.
While I understand your point, it's not nothing. It still indicates that this will be very well received critically. I'll bet you $5 (aus) that it settles above 80%.

mastronikolas
05-10-2005, 08:22 AM
Devin & Dre, you will simply not rest until the world sways to your point of view, eh?
Is it that difficult to agree to disagree with others?

mclihah2
05-10-2005, 09:12 AM
Back on topic:
The script seemed to have a lot of not-so-subtle remarks that related directly to today's political and military situation. Until now, Star Wars has really been a reflection on past political/military conflicts (like the Third Reich) and this marks a noticable turn towards current events.
Not quite!
If you look at what the Bush administration is doing, it's a simple case of using a tried and tested technique that has always worked in the past.
To sum up in 2 keywords "Misinformation" and "Fear"
This technique has been used throughout history, and if you look at pretty much any tyrannical opressive power, you will see the same patter. George Orwell summed it up perfectly in 1984, an amazing and almost prophetic book, that can be summed up with the above words "Misinformation" and "Fear".
This is also the technique Palpatine is using
HITLER
Misinformation - "We're good, clean, white people, and we love Germany, freedom and democracy"
Fear - "Those Jews are gunno infect us, they're animals - Kill em all"
PALPATINE
Misinformation -" I'm a good guy and I love the republic, and freedom and democracy"
"Fear" - "Those seperatists are gunno get us - Give me more powers"
BUSH
Misinformation - "I Love Freedom, and Justice, and Truth, and Liberty"
Fear - "Those Terrorists are gunno get us - we better invade their countries to stop em"
It's nothing new, just a tried and tested technique!!

Litmus Configuration
05-10-2005, 09:16 AM
Devin & Dre, you will simply not rest until the world sways to your point of view, eh?
I don't think they're trying to force their opinions on anyone so much as they're just pointing out that not everyone considers EP3 a "masterpiece" and that most of the positive reviews (so far) don't either. I think the overwhelming majority of people who see EP3 will consider it a notable improvement over the last two Prequels (I sure as hell do) but that doesn't mean it still doesn't have its own troubling flaws that are just as worth discussing as its positive attributes. Checks and balances. That's all.
Is it that difficult to agree to disagree with others?
If that happens, then this message board runs out of gas pretty damn quick.

devincf
05-10-2005, 09:18 AM
Devin & Dre, you will simply not rest until the world sways to your point of view, eh?
Is it that difficult to agree to disagree with others?
Seriously, what are you talking about? There are 22 reviews. When it's all said and done there will be ten times that many on the site. 22 is a drop in the bucket. What is it about the basic mathematics of this that you don't understand?
Stop being an apologist for one minute and understand how some people might be able to look at things like "numbers" and not see an attack on your precious films.

gl2899
05-10-2005, 09:44 AM
Devin & Dre, you will simply not rest until the world sways to your point of view, eh?
Is it that difficult to agree to disagree with others?
No, but apparantly you have a problem with Devin and Dre having their opinion.
Christ, Devin said it was an "OK" Star Wars movie, he didn't trash it.
So, does he have to kiss it's figurative ass to meet you approval?
It seems that you're being guilty of what you're accusing Devin and Andre of....
Just sayin'

Andre Dellamorte
05-10-2005, 12:28 PM
Devin & Dre, you will simply not rest until the world sways to your point of view, eh?
Is it that difficult to agree to disagree with others?
A bunch of the rviews on RT are positive for a highly anticipated summer event film? Shock, surprise! The bulk of the RT stuff comes from a release date, and if one is using RT as a measuring stick, then it's best to wait until then. Because, arguably, the early reviews are coming from online sources, and the real meat and potatoes of RT are the print journalists.
I think the problem with this approach at this juncture is using something meaningless to get excited about these movies. Be excited, be hopeful. If that's your bag, go with it, but...

DimitriL
05-10-2005, 12:38 PM
A bunch of the rviews on RT are positive for a highly anticipated summer event film? Shock, surprise! The bulk of the RT stuff comes from a release date, and if one is using RT as a measuring stick, then it's best to wait until then. Because, arguably, the early reviews are coming from online sources, and the real meat and potatoes of RT are the print journalists.
I think the problem with this approach at this juncture is using something meaningless to get excited about these movies. Be excited, be hopeful. If that's your bag, go with it, but...
RT is fairly useless at any point of the process, except maybe just as a long-term reference tool, or a collection of hyperlinks (much the same way that I view Drudge).
I think the only real shocker of any of the current reviews was Alexandra DuPont at AICN going kinda nutty for the film. She was about as savage on the prequels as anyone, but was entertaining and magnificently lucid in her critiques.

Charlie Brigden
05-10-2005, 12:46 PM
Yeah, I thoroughly enjoyed her review. And the Daily Mail, because they slated it, which tells me there's a good chance I'll like it.

Count Floyd
05-10-2005, 12:47 PM
RT is way more useful as a review depositary than it is as any kind of thumbnail consensus. Their Fresh/Rotten is too vague and arbitrary to be of much use, from what I've seen. That having been said, there *is* a general "B+" vibe to the current reviews if you actually go in and read them. It's not 200 reviews, but if you consider it a 10-15% sample than it's a halfway-decent bellwether. Everyone seems to agree with what's good and what's bad about the movie, it's just a matter of degrees.

gl2899
05-10-2005, 12:54 PM
And Andre,
It seems that we were right about the script. Everything I've heard from Nick, Devin, Russ and Steves reviews to the people that I know that went to the screening in Bloomfield Twp, MI tell me that the dialog we read in the script makes it's full on ham fisted appearance on film.
What makes it so painfully obvious that Lucas is a shit writer is that the novelization was just so much better at telling HIS STORY!
And I have a feeling that this entry of the franchise will fare worse over time than TPM or AOTC.
I already have friends who after seeing the film, digesting it, and thinking it over, are more upset at the missed opportunities displayed here than the more obvious blunders of the earlier entries.
And it's funny that Nick, Devin et al have echoed what my friends stated:
It is an entertaining summer movie, but Star Wars used to mean more than that.

Waker
05-10-2005, 01:06 PM
No, but apparantly you have a problem with Devin and Dre having their opinion.
Christ, Devin said it was an "OK" Star Wars movie, he didn't trash it.
Actually, he did trash it. At length. Throughout several posts.

Jason P. Thompson
05-10-2005, 01:07 PM
Actually, he did trash it. At length. Throughout several posts.And if so, that's his opinion.
Deal with it.

The Dark Shape
05-10-2005, 01:28 PM
For Devin thinking the film was "OK," his review and just about everything he posted about Ep. III leans much more heavily towards the negative.
And these reviews still strike me as damage control, so the reviewer can either come down on the positive or negative side once all is said and done. After all, it's not like anyone would want to have a review contrary to popular opinion again, would they?

Holy Diver
05-10-2005, 01:41 PM
Especially not on CHUD. ;)
Nothing wrong with having an opinion that's contrary to what's popular. But some reviewers just go out of their way to be negative.
It's a cynical world we live in these days. Where people can't enjoy anything anymore without dissecting it and solely focusing on the ugly parts. I hate the kind of the review that's straddling the fence, there's nothing wrong with actually digging the shit out of a movie you know.
The prequels have been fun as hell in my opinion. Come May 19th, it's the end of a great ride for a lot of us.
Yes you can be a Star Wars fan and hate the prequels, gnash your teeth and call Lucas a fucking hack.
Or you can put that blast shield down and reach out with your feelings. :)
Life's too short to be a negative nerfherder. :D

Waker
05-10-2005, 04:37 PM
And if so, that's his opinion.
Deal with it.
Learn to read. My post doesn't exist in a vacuum - it's a response to another, and calls it on its bullshit.

Tom Roberts
05-10-2005, 05:31 PM
IMHO I think RottenTomatoes is reallly interesting tool. I don't take the Fresh / Rotten rating as an absolute, nothing like RT > 80% therefore i will see this film.
As for the 22 reviews, sure there will be 200 reviews for a movie like star wars. But from looking at those 22 it's often good enough to get a trend that will indicate what the other 80-90% of reviews will be like. And that's why I posted it.
At 92% with 26 now.

Graham
05-10-2005, 06:42 PM
Anyone else noticed this?
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y127/Glaive2004/palpcopy.jpg
Are they related?
I think we should be told.

Samurai Mike
05-10-2005, 07:48 PM
I knew there was something suspicious about those TIE fighters flying over the Vatican!

JacknifeJohnny
05-12-2005, 07:36 AM
http://www.celebnewswire.com/2005/05/may_the_force_b.html
May the Force Be with Ew(an)
Ewan McGregor didn’t have to balance his Starbuck’s half-foam half-skim
mocha latte in one hand and his copy of The Da Vinci Code in the other while shoving his kids into his Honda Odyssey to make it into
“Stars--They’re Just Like US”. All he had to do was admit that
Star Wars fans scare the bejesus out of him.
McGregor’s thoughts on the basement-dwelling fanboys were as follows:
"There's this huge following, which is weird. They have big meets and
conventions, and I find it all a bit frightening. Once this guy met me at a stage door when I was doing a play in London. The guy yelled, 'Obi-Wan. Do you have any advice for a trainee Jedi?' I just said, 'No, don't be so ridiculous.'” If McGregor thinks that constantly being asked to whip out his light saber is creepy, then he better prepare himself for the reaction he’ll get from his upcoming project Gnomeo and Juliet. Ewan will voice the character Gnomeo to Kate Winslet’s Juliet in the story of indoor gnome-outdoor gnome love (and, no, we absolutely did not make this up). Once McGregor gets a taste of those psychotic garden gnome fans, he’ll be begging to appear next to Mark Hamill at every Star Wars convention.

The Sphinx
05-16-2005, 12:45 AM
Spracht Scott (http://movies2.nytimes.com/2005/05/16/movies/16star.html?hp). Pseudo-random excerpts:
This is by far the best film in the more recent trilogy, and also the best of the four episodes Mr. Lucas has directed. That's right (and my inner 11-year-old shudders as I type this): it's better than "Star Wars."
...
But every picture, however ravishing, needs a story, and the best way to appreciate how well this one succeeds is to consider the obstacles it must surmount in winning over its audience. First of all, though there are a few surprises tucked into the narrative (which I won't give away), everybody knows the big revelation of the end, since it was also the big revelation at the end of the previous trilogy: Darth Vader is Luke's father. We also know, for the most part, which of the major figures are going to survive the various perils they face. So an element of suspense is missing from the outset.
More than that, the trajectory of the narrative cuts sharply against the optimistic grain of blockbuster Hollywood, in that we are witnessing a flawed hero devolving into a cruel and terrifying villain. It is a measure of the film's accomplishment that this process is genuinely upsetting, even if we are reminded that a measure of redemption lies over the horizon in "Return of the Jedi." And while Mr. Christensen's acting falls short of portraying the full psychological texture of this transformation, Mr. Lucas nonetheless grounds it in a cogent and (for the first time) comprehensible political context.
"This is how liberty dies - to thunderous applause," Padmé observes as senators, their fears and dreams of glory deftly manipulated by Palpatine, vote to give him sweeping new powers. "Revenge of the Sith" is about how a republic dismantles its own democratic principles, about how politics becomes militarized, about how a Manichaean ideology undermines the rational exercise of power. Mr. Lucas is clearly jabbing his light saber in the direction of some real-world political leaders. At one point, Darth Vader, already deep in the thrall of the dark side and echoing the words of George W. Bush, hisses at Obi-Wan, "If you're not with me, you're my enemy." Obi-Wan's response is likely to surface as a bumper sticker during the next election campaign: "Only a Sith thinks in absolutes." You may applaud this editorializing, or you may find it overwrought, but give Mr. Lucas his due. For decades he has been blamed (unjustly) for helping to lead American movies away from their early-70's engagement with political matters, and he deserves credit for trying to bring them back.
But of course the rise of the Empire and the perdition of Anakin Skywalker are not the end of the story, and the inverted chronology turns out to be the most profound thing about the "Star Wars" epic. Taken together, and watched in the order they were made, the films reveal the cyclical nature of history, which seems to repeat itself even as it moves forward. Democracies swell into empires, empires are toppled by revolutions, fathers abandon their sons and sons find their fathers. Movies end. Life goes on.That's a solid three stars at the very least. Interesting that Scott thinks the middle-is-the-end chronology of the two trilogies works... that it not only works, but resonates with the whole 'Force' theme of Star Wars.
I'm a little encouraged by that review. It's a better explanation for liking the film than 'Darth Vader's in it!' and 'Wow, it looks just like the original Star Wars at the end!' On the other hand, I wonder if Scott is just a little giddy over the idea that Lucas is putting George Bush's words in Darth Vader's mouth. Good fun for liberals like myself, but not necessarily right for Star Wars.

Samurai Mike
05-16-2005, 03:20 AM
Isn't it funny how Padme comments on loss of liberty, when it was HER fucking off and giving Jar Jar the vote in AOTC that led to it!! She complains about genocide in TPM, then shrugs her shoulders when Anakin admits to it in the second film. And I hear she has even LESS to do in this one, other than gestate.
Thats stupid.

smugbug
05-16-2005, 03:59 AM
Oh c'mon. If you can stomach it on ROTJ, you can stomach it here. It's as if people must have their SW totally humorless. So Lucas can't tell a joke to save his ass, get over it.
I intend on seeing this flick after consuming the sufficient amount of beer. By "sufficient" I mean, whatever amount necessary that it would make me at least laugh out loud to even the bad jokes.
Hmmmmm....and thats the dilemma. Not enough beer, and I will feel my ass getting numb. Too much, and I'll just pass out and miss the whole thing. Er....my vote is for too much.
Beer seems to be the necessary item so that someone could tolerate this movie. Hey, is there even a "beer drinking game" possible in this installment?

Micah Robinson
05-16-2005, 12:31 PM
The Ebert review is up:
http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050515/REVIEWS/50503002
Also, I'm going to close this thread and start with a fresh clean slate shortly before the Wednesday midnight screenings.

Ahoatam
05-16-2005, 12:59 PM
On the other hand, I wonder if Scott is just a little giddy over the idea that Lucas is putting George Bush's words in Darth Vader's mouth. Good fun for liberals like myself, but not necessarily right for Star Wars.
This is what I'm trying to get at. While most of the folks here probably won't mind, and even enjoy such thinly-veiled criticism of the current administration, I think to a decent portion of the population it may come across as extreme partisanship. While many of you have illustrated Lucas' political subtexts in other SW films, I think it's a lot more in-your-face in ROTS, which is very un-Star Wars.
So forgetting the fact that the film may endorse your own personal view of the current administration (by your own, I mean anyone here), it is wise for Lucas to risk dis-associating half of his audience who simply wanted to see the end of a space opera and not an idictment on the guy they voted for and maybe still have faith in? Seriously, not looking for a political lecture here, because no one's going to change anyone's mind, just looking for some honest looks at what this means for Star Wars.
Granted, it could be argued that Lucas had this story set in '99, before Bush, but I think the sudden thrust of politics to the center of the Star Wars stage warrants some discussion.

cognizant
05-16-2005, 01:24 PM
The emphasis on politics in this trilogy was not needed, it surely wasnt essential to tell a story of the rise and fall of Anakin Skywalker with politics involved. The trilogy could have just focused on him and Obi 1. The Emperor and his political manoeuvres could has just been vaguely hinted at in the background of the universe. I think the focus on politics was in part, written to raise SW slightly above that often derided concept of 'mass popular culture' to be taken slightly more seriously by adults and prehaps be perceived as something even integral, or meaningful to culture, rather than something to simply escape to for a few hours, but obviously Lucas has failed at this, the story has suffered as a result. Seeing geeky teenagers talk to news crew on TV about how this is an important Shakespearean tragic tale is laughable.
SW shouldnt be taken seriously, its an escapist adventure tale without logic, but full of spunk. Well, the first trilogy was anyway. The second trilogy appears to me as a schizophrenic mish mash of mediocre sci-fi, and the frantic attempts of an ageing man trying to update/modify/remix his legacy.

Micah Robinson
05-16-2005, 01:35 PM
That's just silly. You can't depict the creation of a dictator-led military empire without focusing on politics. Anakin's turn occurs within this context, not outside of it. Besides, Palpatine's machinations were scripted and depicted BEFORE Bush's war on Iraq. Besides, the Jedi are the UN, and they certainly don't come off as heroic, smart, or helpful in the least in this film, so there's criticism of the Right and the Left to be found in spades. If people can only see the obvious Bush metaphors, then they're not even really looking at the film.

Charlie Brigden
05-16-2005, 01:37 PM
The emphasis on politics in this trilogy was not needed, it surely wasnt essential to tell a story of the rise and fall of Anakin Skywalker with politics involved. The trilogy could have just focused on him and Obi 1. The Emperor and his political manoeuvres could has just been vaguely hinted at in the background of the universe. I think the focus on politics was in part, written to raise SW slightly above that often derided concept of 'mass popular culture' to be taken slightly more seriously by adults and prehaps be perceived as something even integral, or meaningful to culture, rather than something to simply escape to for a few hours, but obviously Lucas has failed at this, the story has suffered as a result. Seeing geeky teenagers talk to news crew on TV about how this is an important Shakespearean tragic tale is laughable.
I disagree. The trilogy isn't just about Anakin, but also the Empire, and especially since Palpatine plays such an important role in Anakin's development and eventual turn, all of Palpatine's maneouverings are entirely necessary. For example, showing him getting into the chancellor's position, his growing influence over the Jedi, and subsequent acts against them. It's also the most interesting stuff in all of the prequels.
To be fair, ever since the 70s and the whole journal of the whills deal, the rise of the Empire has always been described as this big corruption of politics. I think saying it's trying to be taken seriously by including politics is overly-cynical.

Litmus Configuration
05-16-2005, 01:45 PM
Actually, I would liked to have seen more of Palpatine's politics and less of Jar Jar's...well, anything. All of that precious screen time, wasted. (And that's not another tired criticism of what a terrible character Jar Jar is...more like a criticism of Lucas' storytelling priorities.) When Palpatine and Anakin discuss the Sith during the opera, I actually leaned forward in my theater seat. More of the phantom menace's origins would have been appreciated by this viewer.

mastronikolas
05-16-2005, 01:52 PM
The politics were absolutely necessary for the story.
There's a clear parallel between the Republic rotting from the inside and turning into a dictatorship and Anakin starting out as a decent person and turning into evil incarnate.
And ultimately, the Senate scenes were about 20 minutes of screen time out of six-and-a-half hours of story.

cognizant
05-16-2005, 02:07 PM
Meeeh, I'll concede that it works with emphasis on politics, just didnt work for me with this specific vision. Besides, the OT hardly has any politics, and those films are meant to depict the end of an empire and the re-establishment of the status quo, or some type of equilibrium, and all we get is a few throwaway lines about some senate or something.
I still think the PT could have worked without any direct emphasis on politics, it just would have been in the background, like online political debates/campaign adverts, or news of conflicts or coup de tat's, that characters would watch ocassionally to keep up to date with the situation, or the presence of stormtroopers slowly multiplying in more and more worlds, etc, it just could have been done subtlely, rather than the way we've seen it.
And I'll admit, that when it comes to SW, I'm very cynical, but I cant help it, the over the top, and increasinly ridiculous merchandise aspect just leaves me cold.

Micah Robinson
05-16-2005, 02:19 PM
Yes, relegating Ian McDarmid - the shining jewel of this installment according to almost every review, even the negative ones - to a less prominent role would certainly help the current Star Wars films work better. Slice his screentime in half and let's have some more witty battle droid banter.

Charlie Brigden
05-16-2005, 02:20 PM
Because the merchandise levels of the OT were low?
The point is, the OT never had politics because it was a different time. The Emperor dissolves all the diplomatic bits early in ANH, with Tarkin stating "the remnants of the Old Republic have been swept away." This is the point, that any chance of democracy, of change has been completely and utterly destroyed, giving the motivation for the whole movement of the Rebellion.

devincf
05-16-2005, 02:28 PM
Because the merchandise levels of the OT were low?
The point is, the OT never had politics because it was a different time. The Emperor dissolves all the diplomatic bits early in ANH, with Tarkin stating "the remnants of the Old Republic have been swept away." This is the point, that any chance of democracy, of change has been completely and utterly destroyed, giving the motivation for the whole movement of the Rebellion.
Apologist! There's plenty of political stuff going on during a rebellion. Do you think that all the systems that joined the rebellion wanted the same power structure when it was all said and done? Do you think all the reps in whatever made up the rebellion high command (we don't even know their power structure! But we know all about the power structure of the old republic...) agreed from campaign to campaign? Weren't our heroes in the OT close enough to that power structure that we should have been in on these debates at least as much as we were in the PT?
This "it's a function of the story" stuff is bullshit.

Charlie Brigden
05-16-2005, 02:38 PM
Okay, everything is marketing. I give up.

ElCapitanAmerica
05-16-2005, 02:38 PM
Apologist!
Heretic! Devincf the Spanish Grand Inquisitor has spoken!

Jacob Singer
05-16-2005, 02:40 PM
From CNN: (http://www.cnn.com/2005/SHOWBIZ/Movies/05/16/cannes.starwars/index.html)
Lucas on Iraq war, 'Star Wars'
From CNN's Chris Burns
Monday, May 16, 2005 Posted: 10:12 AM EDT (1412 GMT)
CANNES, France (CNN) -- "Star Wars" director George Lucas says that although he wrote the original film during the Vietnam War, his six-part saga could apply to the war in Iraq.
''In terms of evil, one of the original concepts was how does a democracy turn itself into a dictatorship,'' Lucas told a news conference at Cannes, where his final episode had its world premiere.
''The parallels between what we did in Vietnam and what we're doing in Iraq now are unbelievable.
''On the personal level it was how does a good person turn into a bad person, and part of the observation of that is that most bad people think they are good people, they are doing it for the right reasons,'' he added.
More at the link.

The Dark Shape
05-16-2005, 02:47 PM
Apologist! There's plenty of political stuff going on during a rebellion. Do you think that all the systems that joined the rebellion wanted the same power structure when it was all said and done? Do you think all the reps in whatever made up the rebellion high command (we don't even know their power structure! But we know all about the power structure of the old republic...) agreed from campaign to campaign? Weren't our heroes in the OT close enough to that power structure that we should have been in on these debates at least as much as we were in the PT?
This "it's a function of the story" stuff is bullshit.
Okay, Devin. How should Lucas have shown the collapse of a government without politics being involved?

devincf
05-16-2005, 02:50 PM
I'm not remotely interested in writing a new PT. All you need are a couple of lines, similar to the "He dissolved the senate" line from the first star wars.

The Dark Shape
05-16-2005, 03:00 PM
You can't cheat like that when your main villain is the man taking over the government.

ilmandthx
05-16-2005, 03:01 PM
I consider myself an apologist with a conscience. I like the prequels for what they are, but I know in my gut they could've been so much more. I really wish Lucas would've kept his producing hat on, directed the effects and animation sequences (where his true passions lie), and left the screenwriting and directing the actors to someone(s) who could interject a little humanity.
Most of the ideas, themes, even design and set pieces in the PT are intellectually sound. The problem is that no one feels anything. And if they do, generally its out of a sense of nostalgia rather than immediate tugging at the heartstrings.
Lucas is a master visualist. He also has a pretty good sense of story structure and has some really innovative ideas. The problem is the guy is admittedly impatient when it comes to the writing and directing processes.
The politics of the PT are an interesting inclusion to the SW storyline, but they are far too talky and overcomplicated for their own good. Much like this post. Ahem, there is no immediate drama involved in the politics until ROTS. That to me, is a huge mistake.
The PT as well as Matrix: Reloaded and Matrix: Revolutions are examples of first draft scripts, directors with too much power and no one to check them, and misplaced priorities. Best intentions, even when they are completely revealed via commentaries, interviews, etc., cannot make up for lackluster execution.
Remember that old Godzilla dig that ILM had? PLOT DOES MATTER? How about DRAMA DOES MATTER?

devincf
05-16-2005, 03:12 PM
You can't cheat like that when your main villain is the man taking over the government.
No, that's the main villain of the PT where boring politics are the forefront. A PT with less politics could have had the Emperor in as minimal a role as he had in the OT.

Micah Robinson
05-16-2005, 03:14 PM
No, that's the main villain of the PT where boring politics are the forefront. A PT with less politics could have had the Emperor in as minimal a role as he had in the OT.
No thanks. McDarmid's evolution from Senator to Chancellor to Emperor is not only one of the best parts of the PT, but also the perfect platform for illustrating the arrogance and flaws of the Jedi.
Now, the separatist talks, along with the other irrelevant races and the senate debates could have been minimized for sure. But anything subtracting from McDarmid's screentime hurts these movies, IMHO.

cognizant
05-16-2005, 03:28 PM
No thanks. McDarmid's evolution from Senator to Chancellor to Emperor is not only one of the best parts of the PT, but also the perfect platform for illustrating the arrogance and flaws of the Jedi.
Of course in my re-imagining of the PT, the Jedi would not have been the wankers we have seen them to be. Making them incredibly dull, brainless and flawed, makes their downfall so much easier to write. Its harder to creatively bring about the downfall of something thats working right, but Lucas...
Anyway my opinion still stands, the story of Anakin's fall did not need focus on politics, or even the Emperor, as Devin says, this I'm sure is a minority opinion, but I think still a valid one, any one of us could come up with three screenplays that could be on par with the OT without resorting to real world political allegories. Well not any one of us, but you get the jist. If we were basing the PT off of what we'd seen in the OT, all we'd essentially need, is the Clone Wars, and thats it.
Defending the focus on politics, simply because of McDarmid's performance, surely means that everything else was bollocks. I'd rather downsize his role, in exchange for a better trilogy of films as a whole, with an exciting, original and involving narrative.

Ahoatam
05-16-2005, 03:35 PM
From the very beginning, the PT is infused with overly complicated politics, when in the OT there were virtually none. Dispute over the taxation of trade routes? Wat???
Why can't we give Padme a couple of throwaway lines to cover what's going on in the Senate? "Okay, Anakin, pookie, I'm going to go vote against the creation of a republic army, because that would give the Chancellor a chance to be naughty. See you later."

dudalb
05-16-2005, 04:22 PM
I think where Lucas shoots himself in the foot with his political commentary is in Obi Wan's reply "Only the Sith Deal in Absolutes". Considering that for five films one of the basis is a very absolute idea of good vs evil (Empire/Sith Bad, Republic/Jedi Good) it's a little late to be condemning absolutes. A reply from Obi Wan like "You are truly from the Dark Side, Chacellor" would have been a hell of a lot better.
Lucas leaves himself wide open with that remark.

Samurai Mike
05-16-2005, 05:19 PM
Of course in my re-imagining of the PT, the Jedi would not have been the wankers we have seen them to be. Making them incredibly dull, brainless and flawed, makes their downfall so much easier to write. Its harder to creatively bring about the downfall of something thats working right, but Lucas...
Totally agree with that. How could a group of such ignorant, close-minded, arrogant and just downright stupid people be the guardians of peace and justice for over a thousand generations? The prequels make it seem as if the Jedi were the architects of their own fate, rather than anything the Sith did. That could work, if only the last film wasn't called 'Return of the Jedi', where the Sith are brought down by Ewoks.
And about the politics, I think there should have been a political aspect to the PT, just not the boring, oversimplified and poorly thought out politics we've seen. The Republic was brought down by ONE man so cunning, the other trillions of creatures around him didn't suspect a thing? And don't even get me STARTED on Yoda "I can sense the Dark Side but not when its sitting right in front of me".

ElCapitanAmerica
05-16-2005, 05:26 PM
I think where Lucas shoots himself in the foot with his political commentary is in Obi Wan's reply "Only the Sith Deal in Absolutes". Considering that for five films one of the basis is a very absolute idea of good vs evil (Empire/Sith Bad, Republic/Jedi Good) it's a little late to be condemning absolutes. A reply from Obi Wan like "You are truly from the Dark Side, Chacellor" would have been a hell of a lot better.
Lucas leaves himself wide open with that remark.
You make the same point on multiple threads, so I'm not sure were you want to read the reply to your silly point. I wrote something in the ep3 thread in franchises;
http://chud.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1468498#post1468498

dudalb
05-16-2005, 05:41 PM
Totally agree with that. How could a group of such ignorant, close-minded, arrogant and just downright stupid people be the guardians of peace and justice for over a thousand generations? The prequels make it seem as if the Jedi were the architects of their own fate, rather than anything the Sith did. That could work, if only the last film wasn't called 'Return of the Jedi', where the Sith are brought down by Ewoks.
And about the politics, I think there should have been a political aspect to the PT, just not the boring, oversimplified and poorly thought out politics we've seen. The Republic was brought down by ONE man so cunning, the other trillions of creatures around him didn't suspect a thing? And don't even get me STARTED on Yoda "I can sense the Dark Side but not when its sitting right in front of me".
I agree. I think that Lucas meant to show that the Jedi had, with the rest of the Republic, had declined to the point where they were vulnerable to the Sith, a la Rome and the Barbarians,but he blew that concept completely.
And i repeat that his blacks are too blacks and whites are too white for Lucas to start screaming about absolutes at this point in time.

ElCapitanAmerica
05-17-2005, 12:45 AM
The Republic was brought down by ONE man so cunning, the other trillions of creatures around him didn't suspect a thing?
Uh .. in the original trilogy, the rebellion beats the empire because of a Tatooine farm boy.

Litmus Configuration
05-17-2005, 12:53 AM
Uh .. in the original trilogy, the rebellion beats the empire because of a Tatooine farm boy.
Vader kills The Emperor.
Han and Leia blow up the shield generator.
Lando and Wedge blow up the Death Star's main reactor.
Random A-Wing pilot takes out The Executor.
Rebel pilots, troops and (gulp!) Ewoks killed or captured countless Imperial troops.
What exactly did Luke do, aside from settling some very important personal business?

ElCapitanAmerica
05-17-2005, 12:55 AM
Vader kills the Emperor because of Luke.
The Emperor manipulates everybody to control the galaxy.
Simple.

Litmus Configuration
05-17-2005, 12:57 AM
Vader kills the Emperor because of Luke.
The Emperor manipulates everybody to control the galaxy.
Simple.
Vader killing The Emperor would have been moot in a few minutes anyway, once Lando and Wedge blew up the main reactor.

D. Richard
05-17-2005, 04:59 AM
ok I just read most of the thread, and having just finished watching the film I still don't understand the anakin conception deal.
Palpatine tells Anakin a story of a great Darth lord that knew the darisk side of the force so well he could blah blah blah midichlorians blah blah with merely a look. All right, so according to the story, Darth Plagus (Plagius, Plageus? whatev) conceived Anakin while Sidious was his apprentice. Sidious murders his master in his sleep and takes over the Anakin plot himself. That's what I got from it. And assuming Palpatine is lying and did the whole scheme himself seems like a pointless assumption. "Because Palpatine is a liar, and liars lie."? Not good enough. He plainly speaks of this great Darth lord getting axed in his sleep by his apprentice as if he was the one who did it. If we can believe that part, why can we not believe that Palpatine wasn't the telepathic sperm donor?
I think the concept of Palpatine as an opportunistic apprentice who murders his master is far more appealing than the one of him making up stories that take away from his supposed genius.

Rene A. Moncivais
05-17-2005, 09:57 AM
I didn't know Jerry Jones was in this?

MrMushnik
05-17-2005, 10:01 AM
"Because Palpatine is a liar, and liars lie."? Not good enough. He plainly speaks of this great Darth lord getting axed in his sleep by his apprentice as if he was the one who did it. If we can believe that part, why can we not believe that Palpatine wasn't the telepathic sperm donor?
I think the concept of Palpatine as an opportunistic apprentice who murders his master is far more appealing than the one of him making up stories that take away from his supposed genius.
Good liars mix their lies with the truth though. He could be telling Anakin the truth about his master and at the same time leading Anakin to believe that he is the one responsible for his creation. That way he hooks Anakin with the "creating life" part and then goes on and pits himself against Obi-Wan as a father figure. And plus we've alrady seen more or less the same scenario in Episdode 2 when Dooku tries to recruit Obi-Wan.

Litmus Configuration
05-17-2005, 10:09 AM
I think the concept of Palpatine as an opportunistic apprentice who murders his master is far more appealing than the one of him making up stories that take away from his supposed genius.
I agree. This whole silly "Palpatine is lying" theory is incredibly thin. Besides, Obi-Wan has told far more lies than Palpatine. "Certain point of view," my ass. I'd wager that if you took all of Palpatine's dialogue from the films and do the same with Obi-Wan, Palpy would win the "Who's More Truthful?" contest hands down.

mastronikolas
05-17-2005, 10:17 AM
The fact that Palpatine seduces Anakin by essentially telling the truth (even if it is "from a certain point of view") is one of the most interesting facets of Sith.
Besides, I don't get the whole uproar about his "revelation". I enjoy the fact that Lucas leaves it to us to choose if Palpatine was behind Anakin's creation or not. I much prefer that than being spoon-fed a definite answer.

Satan's Hamster
05-17-2005, 10:50 AM
I intend on seeing this flick after consuming the sufficient amount of beer. By "sufficient" I mean, whatever amount necessary that it would make me at least laugh out loud to even the bad jokes.
Hmmmmm....and thats the dilemma. Not enough beer, and I will feel my ass getting numb. Too much, and I'll just pass out and miss the whole thing. Er....my vote is for too much.
Beer seems to be the necessary item so that someone could tolerate this movie. Hey, is there even a "beer drinking game" possible in this installment?
Don't go crying if you get alcohol poisoning! I think there sould be a drinking game where you have to do a shot of vodka every time someone says something stupid, in which case, should you die after seeing the film and you were too be cremated, your body would burn for three months!!!

mastronikolas
05-17-2005, 10:55 AM
Smugbug and little fury fourteen-year-old, I envy your prescient abilities.

Satan's Hamster
05-17-2005, 11:20 AM
First of all you fucking twats, there was no need for politics in the OT because The Empire had been in control for close to 20 years and I doubt that the Rebellion would have very successful by launching a political attack when the Emperor would just fry their ass with Sith Lightning. If this was Mr. Skywalker Goes To Washington, A New Hope wouldn't have been about trying to destroy a Death Star, it would have been about Luke going to the Galactic senate and making his case that the Empire is evil and that the Emperor and Darth Vader were very naughty men while wagging his finger at them as the senate hiss and boo as they slide into the shadows. Politics’ are at the very heart of how Palpatine takes over the senate and to ignore that for more space battles would be stupid and I’m quite sure that most of the people that are bitching and moaning about the politics’ here are Republican’s and they don’t particularly like looking into the mirror because they’re all fucking monkey’s with their eyes, mouth and ears closed!

Satan's Hamster
05-17-2005, 11:31 AM
Another thing fuckwads, how the hell did you think Hitler got to power. He didn't wake up one morning as leader of the Nazi party. When Lucas was writing the OT I'm sure Hitler's rise might of influenced him SOMEWHAT given that he's Jewish, DONTCHA THUNK, and the similarities to George W. Bush are just a happy little coincidence.

kittyinjammies
05-17-2005, 11:37 AM
Hey, Hamster. Cool it, ok?

Ahoatam
05-17-2005, 11:44 AM
Another thing fuckwads, how the hell did you think Hitler got to power. He didn't wake up one morning as leader of the Nazi party. When Lucas was writing the OT I'm sure Hitler's rise might of influenced him SOMEWHAT given that he's Jewish, DONTCHA THUNK, and the similarities to George W. Bush are just a happy little coincidence.
I don't care what the others say. You're special too, okay little guy?
Seriously, did AICN reach capacity or something?

Dan Whitehead
05-17-2005, 11:50 AM
A reminder (http://chud.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79646) for any new posters who have joined the boards just to vent SW related bullshit at others.
In a nutshell: Start shit, get banned.

Jason P. Thompson
05-17-2005, 12:00 PM
In a nutshell: Start shit, get banned.Well put.

Greg Clark
05-17-2005, 01:41 PM
That should be at the top of the user agreement page when you register. "Welcome to CHUD. Have fun, don't feed Jabba after midnight, and if you start shit, you will get banned."

dudalb
05-17-2005, 03:36 PM
Kudos to Dan for handling this asswipe in a timely manner.
BTW not that it matters but Lucas is not Jewish. I got a feeling this asswipe is the same one who showed up spouting shit that Lucas was a greedy Jew a couple of weeks ago.
He really needs to find a more acceptable way of getting attention to himself.
Sadly, the closer we get to the film the more Alpha Hotels are going to show up here.

Brad Millette
05-17-2005, 04:19 PM
Kudos to Dan for handling this asswipe in a timely manner.
BTW not that it matters but Lucas is not Jewish. I got a feeling this asswipe is the same one who showed up spouting shit that Lucas was a greedy Jew a couple of weeks ago.
He really needs to find a more acceptable way of getting attention to himself.
Sadly, the closer we get to the film the more Alpha Hotels are going to show up here.
Seriously man, hobbies? Needlepoint? Macaroni sculptures? You have to have SOMETHING better to do with your time.

dudalb
05-17-2005, 04:26 PM
Seriously man, hobbies? Needlepoint? Macaroni sculptures? You have to have SOMETHING better to do with your time.
Civil War reenacting, reading, gaming, Softball...I do all those.
And you could ask the same question about 80% of the people here.
Chud is a fun place to hang out at. that's all.

Brad Millette
05-17-2005, 04:30 PM
So.. uh.. stop being a shining chunk of trollbait, then.

MattCG
05-17-2005, 04:57 PM
Saw this last night and overall I agree that this is best prequel yet, but that's not saying a whole lot. It's still a troubled film, with some scenes that are so embarrassingly bad that you're ashamed to be in the theater. Still, the good outweighs the bad and the prequel lovers will love it and the haters will have some of theri goodwill won back.
That said, this movie has got serious fucking issues. The main being Hayden Christiansen and his Smarm/Assfucker/Whine approach to acting. If someone could kill him? That would be great.
The other being C-3P0. Sweet Jesus.
Also, I would've thought Anakin's fall to the Dark Side would've been handled with a little more......skill. What we have here is the equivalent of "I'm a Dark Lord of Sith.......NOW!" It's total bullshit.
All in all, a mostly fun movie and lots of prayers the Lucas NEVER BE ALLOWED TO DIRECT ANYTHING EVER, EVER AGAIN!!!!

robotpals
05-18-2005, 02:00 PM
"Only the Sith Deal in Absolutes."
An absolutist statement if I ever heard one.

Micah Robinson
05-18-2005, 02:06 PM
"Only the Sith Deal in Absolutes."
An absolutist statement if I ever heard one.
Completely, and it's a good indication of Lucas' cluelessness as a screenwriter.
BTW, I'm closing this thread shortly and opening a fresh one.

Andrew Clarke
05-18-2005, 02:10 PM
Though Micah's right to start a fresh one, it is kind of funny to close a post release thread just as the film is opening.

robotpals
05-18-2005, 02:17 PM
Last!

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