URL: http://chud.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-80554-p-2.html

<h> Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith post-release
   discussion
  <h>Ahoatam
   <h>05-06-2005, 05:28 PM
   <p>Planned, foreseen, whatever. The point is, I knew the minute that Shmi
   talked about the circumstances of Anakin's birth that he was
   "planned," and that meant to me that it was meant for him to
   eventually become Darth Vader. I mean, D'uh!
   <p>SINCE THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENS.
   <p>Ask George Lucas this: "George, did you mean for Anakin to become
   Darth Vader, and that the Sith were involved in his creation? Did you
   intend for Palpatine, who becomes Emperor, to be the driving force (by
   way of what he learned from his own master) behind the creation of
   Anakin/Vader?
   <p>Let me guess . . . the answer would be . . . "YES."
   <p>Okay, I've been hanging around here for a couple of months, as well as
   anxiously awaiting this movie to see if the series can be redeemed.
   I've finally decided to break my silence and speak up and call
   "bullshit" on this.
   <p>There's no "well 'duh!" moment, Jim. You may have assumed that GL was
   going to head that way with the story, but you never knew, and neither
   did we. Technically, with what we've been told in this thread about
   ROTS, we can still only make an assumption. You have no call talking
   down to someone about a couple lines in TPM because the only thing
   those lines imply is immaculate conception.
   <p>As far as your ask GL question, it's irrelevant to the subject. The
   subject is whether or not one can infer from Episodes 1 and 2 if
   Anakin was definitely created via Palpatine. And the answer is "no."
   One can certainly hypothesize this - hell, the morons over at
   TheForce.net have been arguing this possibility for years. But even
   the rapid fanboy repeat viewer can't extrapolate your assumptions
   about the storyline from the material presented in Episodes 1 and 2.
   All you can do is guess at the possibilities until the text gives you
   an answer.
   <p>For what it's worth, I also appreciate this plot turn - it rings truer
   to the machinations of Palpatine than the will of microscopic life
   forms.
<h>Bailey
<p>jabba there's a difference between guessing that plot revelation and
   it having been previously cemented in the text. there was all kinds of
   speculation as to the nature of the immaculate conception, but there
   was nothing in episodes 1 or 2 that indicated palpatine had to be
   behind it. I mean, you might as well reason since he talks so much
   about "planning" and "forseeing" that he was behind lando losing the
   falcon to han in a game of intergalactic texas hold 'em. it was a
   possibility, sure, but it was left open until now.
<h>Samurai Mike
   <p>I find the idea that Palpatine is Anakins father one of the most
   unimaginative and mind-bogglingly unoriginal plot contrivances in
   movie history. Lucas came up with THAT in 20 years?!
   <p>But I digress, can anyone give me a good rating of the lightsaber
   duels? Is it really just a case of quantity over quality, or were you
   just expecting a bit too much? There are supposed to be 5 duels in
   this film, but they've barely warranted a mention so far. Are they
   really that bad?
<h>Jim Pappas/Jabba
   <p>Yeah, call bullshit. I am sorry, but you can't argue with reality. The
   REALITY is that Palpatine DID IN FACT have something to do with the
   birth of Anakin, and that it was his machinations that led to the
   creation of Darth Vader. Goddammit, but it is all there on the screen.
   I cannot believe that Sean (Fett) and gravedigger couldn't see this
   coming. I fucking saw it coming, and I have discussed this ad nauseum
   with my friends over the past several YEARS. And as for asking GL, it
   is NOT IRRELEVANT, since Star Wars is HIS creation. Some of us are,
   apparently, more intuitive than others. I can't help it that this is
   so.
<h>Charlie Brigden
   <p>Did Palpatine name me Sean too?
<h>devincf
   <p>I think the duels are fairly lifeless most of the time, and The Duel
   is a major disappointment.
   <p>BTW, I think it's interesting that people here are saying my take is
   negative. I am definitely more positive than negative on the film, and
   my review at rottentomatoes will be fresh rated. But Episode III is a
   pretty mediocre movie, and it fizzles more than it sizzles - and
   frankly, Episode III needed to be the one to hit it out of the
   ballpark. As a generic action film it's OK, as the most important
   episode of the PT it's a bummer.
<h>gravedigger
   <p>Congratulations on being a good guesser, Jabba, but that doesn't mean
   ANYTHING in the first two prequels sets up the revelation about
   Palpatine being Anakin's old man.
<h>Waker
   <p>Yea I don't see where anybody'd get the impression that you hated the
   film, besides of course your several posts happily bashing it.
   <p>And Fatboy is a douche, if only because he goes over the top about
   everything he ever writes about or discusses, and has no
   self-awareness; he's wound up leaving, dramatically, every board on
   the internet, and critiquing them at length on the next board he
   wanders to. But that doesn't necessarily invalidate his points.
<h>Samurai Mike
   <p>Man that sucks, after the cool but way too short duels in AOTC. So
   what IS good?
<h>devincf
   <p>McGregor is good. The scene at the ballet, minus the whole thing about
   Palpy making Anakin, is good. The slaughter at the Jedi temple is
   good. Obi Wan leaving Anakin to die is good.
   <p>The back and forth plotting between Palpatine and the Jedi Council
   (each is trying to use Anakin against the other) would be GREAT if it
   happened in more than two back to back scenes. That should have been
   the main plot of the movie, with Anakin increasingly torn.
<h>cognizant
   <p>Noob question: Why would Palpatine 'create' someone powerful enough to
   beat him? He looked pretty comfortable using Maul, Dooku, etc, aways
   staying on top.
<h>devincf
   <p>I think it's a good question. I guess he thought he could control
   Vader?
   <p>The other question is: how does Vader go from being the right hand man
   of Palpatine in III to Tarkin's bitch in IV?
<h>Russ Fischer
   <p>He fell in with a bad crowd....Chewbacca.
<h>cognizant
   <p>I think it's a good question. I guess he thought he could control
   Vader?
   <p>We could stretch it and hypothesize that Palpatine's masterplan was to
   create and then ensure the Skywalker line would continue and he would
   use each member like lapdogs for his nefarious schemes (because he's a
   lazy bastard or something), first Anakin, then his son Luke, and so on
   forever, but this plan (ludicrous as it sounds) is shot to shit from
   the beginning because of Anakin's duel with Obi 1 which leaves him
   more machine than man.
   <p>Or something equally contrived.
<h>Charlie Brigden
   <p>I guess Palpatine was so overconfident in his powers of control that
   he though no apprentice would ever try to overthrow him, even with the
   Sith's history. Maybe he saw himself as the ultimate Sith Lord, and
   after Vader decided he wouldn't need any more to do his bidding, but
   didn't think what had gone on in the past with Sith overthrowing Sith
   would ever happen to him.
   <p>I always saw Vader as a kind of advisor. Tarkin was the main military
   commander, and Vader was always just there in the background to
   represent the Emperor. A kind of Sith Advisor I guess.
<h>Russ Fischer
   <p>That's the problem with foreseeing things. Unlike Jim, most seers
   can't actually see how everything is going to work out. Palpatine
   could control Vader easily -- that's the great thing about
   conditioning someone with hate and loss.
   <p>Vader was supposed to kill Yoda and Kenobi. With their deaths, Padme
   and the kids might not have lived, or the children could have been
   raised as Sith. (Like Jordan, Minnesota for dark jedi.) If Vader
   hadn't failed to kill those two jedi, none of the OT would happen, and
   Palpatine and Vader would still be steering the ship.
<h>Litmus Configuration
   <p>Hmmm. I used to like Fatboy. Now he's proven himself to be both a
   coward and a liar. A shame he went off the deep end and started
   fabricating all sorts of nonsense regarding people's honest opinions.
   Oh well.
   <p>Frankly, I think my opinion of EP3 has been pretty balanced, pointing
   out the good and the bad. And compared to how I feel about EPs 1 and
   2, I feel my overall opinions about EP3 are downright positive. I
   guess everything either has to be a "masterpiece" or a "failure" for
   most people these days.
<h>Darth Chocula
   <p>How is Jimmy Smits in this as Organa? Thats the only thing I can think
   of that wasn't covered here...
<h>Ahoatam
   <p>"Well, D'uh!"
<h>Samurai Mike
   <p>What did you think of Eps 1 and 2 when you first saw them? I ask
   because a lot of people (like me) liked them first up, then saw
   through the eye candy soon after. I guess I'm asking you if you think
   you're current opinion on Ep 3 will change?
   <p>I don't know quite what to make of the opinions here. Most of the
   reviewers seem to be more interested in pointing out whats wrong with
   it, then saying "but I think overall I like it". I'm so confused! (Not
   difficult to achieve).
<h>seantree
<p>just to clear up the Palpatine fathering Anakin deal. I'm glad that
   was not true as it would have ruined the saga for me.
<h>Litmus Configuration
   <p>I strongly disliked both EPs 1 and 2 right out of the gate...but in
   different ways. My hatred of EP1 was very confusing because I had been
   such a die-hard STAR WARS fan for so many years. It took me a while to
   fully reconcile my disappointment. I had no such hesitation with EP2.
   <p>EP3 is a different animal. The more I think about it, the more
   questions I end up asking. Unfortunately, I'm not finding satisfying
   answers. But still, I consider it a significant improvement over EPs 1
   and 2, and for that, I remain somewhat grateful that at least one of
   the Prequels wasn't a total failure.
<h>Canned Food
   <p>Although I haven't seen the movie yet, I noticed some of you guys were
   speculating on "what ifs?," such as "what if Anakin had killed Obi Wan
   Kenobi."
   <p>It's interesting to see how the future shifts dramatically throughout
   episode III, causing people to wonder how things could have been if
   they had not transpired as they did in the film:
   <p>Anakin and Padme were gonna retire to Naboo after their secret got out
   and both were expelled from their homes.
   <p>Then, Anakin converted to the Sith, and things were going to be that
   the Jedi would be extinguished, Palpatine would be killed by
   Anakin/Vader, and Padme would sit as his side as the new Imperial
   family in the galaxy. Kinda neat to imagine how their kids would have
   been like had they been raised as Sith.
<h>Andre Dellamorte
   <p>Fatboy's argument wouldn't hold up in court. Sidious is a liar, and
   evil. But... that said, who's to say that he's lying?
<h>devincf
   <p>Fatboy is simply full of shit on that point. On both points, probably.
   Has he seen the movie? Because the way that Palpatine talks about
   it... anyway, ANakin shows no reaction to the creating life thing.
   Weak seduction.
<h>devincf
   <p>And frankly, these films are not so subtle that he would be lying
   about that (after leaving the immaculate conception door open from I)
   without us being told.
<h>Russ Fischer
   <p>From my perspective, it doesn't matter.
   <p>Immaculate/Jesus Anakin is terrible.
   <p>Created Anakin is terrible.
   <p>And what of the midichlorians? Using the Jesus example (as in the
   thread) they don't fit. Midichlorians weren't necessary to create
   Jesus. Granted, they're another very stupid idea, but an idea that
   doesn't fit well with the Jesus theory nonetheless.
<h>Graham
   <p>It's important to be totally honest here...I watched this (TPM) in
   Leicester Square(sp) and paid out a shitload of cash to 'enjoy'
   it...the enjoyment lasted 'til I hit sunlight,,,(AOTC) was in a
   similar but not so expensive venue...as for where I'll see ROTS, I'll
   see where I take myself......
<h>seantree
   <p>could be. I'll have to wait until I see it on the 19th to be sure.
   But, would Lucas throw that line in there and never mention it again
   if it were true? Some of the arguements mad ein that thread and the
   one at theforce.net are valid. Such as, If Palpatine could create
   force sensitive children why not build an entire army of them? The
   fact that anakin was worried over Padme's death would be a great
   reason for Palp's to lie about this power also. On the other hand it
   would be a great blow to the Jedi. I mean finding out that your
   prophecy had been fulfilled by genetic enhancement? Makes all of their
   beliefs go down the tubes.
<h>Samurai Mike
   <p>I'm glad to hear Ewan is finally getting a chance to shine here (well
   I hope so). Compared with the first two films, what would you rate
   Obi-wans 'kickass factor' in this one? With say TPM being a 7 (cool
   Maul fight, little else), and a 3 for AOTC (generally clueless,
   unsatisfying fights, needs kids to help him etc.)
   <p>Also, what amount of time does he have onscreen?
<h>devincf
   <p>He didn't create an army because it probably isn't easy. He may have
   needed to have found the right person.
   <p>Lucas never mentioning the line again is what shows that it's true.
   <p>Also, how many times does Palpatine really lie to Anakin?
<h>Ahoatam
   <p>Actually, I have to agree with Fischer on this one. While I prefer the
   Palpatine-created version, having to decide between the two is like
   having to decide if you want a kick in the nuts or toothpicks shoved
   under your fingernails. I happen to be a fingernail guy, because I
   like my nuts.
   <p>I saw early drafts of TPM script in which Anakin's father was a krayt
   dragon hunter on Tatooine. It would have worked just fine if Anakin's
   father was some long-dead hero, which would satisfy both needs: Anakin
   having the burden of high expectations because of his lineage, and the
   want of a father-figure, which Obi and Palpatine jockey to replace.
<h>Samurai Mike
   <p>It's important to be totally honest here...I watched this (TPM) in
   Leicester Square(sp) and paid out a shitload of cash to 'enjoy'
   it...the enjoyment lasted 'til I hit sunlight,,,(AOTC) was in a
   similar but not so expensive venue...as for where I'll see ROTS, I'll
   see where I take myself......
   <p>You want honesty? I really liked TPM when it came out. There were
   reasons for this:
   <l> I was young and naive.
   <l> I was not the jaded moviegoer I am today.
   <l> Most importantly, I had never been near an internet messageboard in
   my life.
   <p>Over the years I came to see it for the soulless toy commercial it is,
   but for a while there I DID like it, and I'm not ashamed to admit it.
   <p>AOTC I liked the first time, got caught up in it, cheered when Yoda
   got his groove on. However, by the second showing I was over it, too
   many crap scenes to forgive, and it seemed the characters had
   regressed (Obi-wan and Padme, I'm looking at YOU). I haven't watched
   it at all since its theatrical run (except for a crappy vcd copy I
   borrowed from a friend that had hilarious subtitles. "The Jedi will be
   finished, fella!":)
<h>Jim Pappas/Jabba
   <p>Congratulations on being a good guesser, Jabba, but that doesn't mean
   ANYTHING in the first two prequels sets up the revelation about
   Palpatine being Anakin's old man.
   <p>I don't think I was guessing. It was my take on things once Shmi
   started talking about the circumstances of Anakin's birth. I mean, it
   wasn't just coincidence that Qui Gon ended up on Tatooine, it wasn't
   just coincidence that he met Anakin there. It was part of Palpatine's
   plan, or that is what I thought. That was how I took it at the time.
   After all, doesn't Yoda say later to "not underestimate the powers of
   the Emperor?" I took that line from Ep. 6 and applied that logically
   to what happens in the PT. I was wrong about one thing I considered,
   that Qui Gon was secretly a Sith, so I'm not that good of a guesser.
<h>Jim Pappas/Jabba
   <p>Actually, I have to agree with Fischer on this one. While I prefer the
   Palpatine-created version, having to decide between the two is like
   having to decide if you want a kick in the nuts or toothpicks shoved
   under your fingernails. I happen to be a fingernail guy, because I
   like my nuts.
   <p>I saw early drafts of TPM script in which Anakin's father was a krayt
   dragon hunter on Tatooine. It would have worked just fine if Anakin's
   father was some long-dead hero, which would satisfy both needs: Anakin
   having the burden of high expectations because of his lineage, and the
   want of a father-figure, which Obi and Palpatine jockey to replace.
   <p>Maybe we need to think that Qui Gon was actually wrong, that it wasn't
   Anakin who is "the one" it is actually his son, Luke, who did not come
   from any virgin birth. It could also be considered that the
   midichlorians themselves defeated the emperor's plan by somehow
   manipulating Vader into wanting to join with his son, thus leading to
   the fall of the emperor. It was, after all, love that finally defeated
   the emperor, not the force. The love of a father for his son. I know
   I'd like to learn more about these midichlorians, and whether or not
   they have a form of sentience that could be communicated with on some
   level. Maybe Lucas will address that with the further Clone Wars
   cartoons, or the live action series he's planning.
<h>gl2899
   <h>SPOILERS
   <p>This film has a higher number of laugh out loud moments than the other
   two. Sadly, they are all in the more intense and emotional scenes.
   Lucas seems to be emotionally tone deaf.
   <p>The movie ended up being what I expected: reasonable eye candy with a
   groaner of a story. It's full of fairly ridiculous stuff:
   <p>The Emperor is a joke (although Palpatine at the opera/ballet is
   great)
   <p>Lucas should have stopped having old men fight
   <p>Mace vs Sidious is one of the worst fight scenes ever
   <p>The Duel is a huge disappointment. It's actually sort of boring and
   has none of the emotional heaviness of the one at the end of JEDI.
   <p>The opening rescue sequence is like the Jedi Knight Follies
   <p>Lucas insists on crowding his frame in every fight scene. There's no
   emotional component to any of this stuff.
   <p>Padme's death is frankly ludicrous
   <p>So is Vader as Frankenstein
   <p>Vader cries. Twice.
   <p>General Grievous is a villain who belongs in a spoof. At one point he
   wrings his hands because i guess he has no mustache to twirl
   <p>There is some good stuff:
   <l>McGregor, once the movie picks up steam
   <l>There are a couple of choice shots, including SPOILER the one where
   Vader goes to kill the younglings END SPOILER
   <l>Either the effects shots are much better this time than AOTC or I'm
   just really used to digital stunt men.
   <p>Well, sounds like they stuck to the [bleep]ing script.
   <p>Padme dies of a [bleep]ing broken heart?
   <p>Anakin is more whiny psycho than galactic badass?
   <p>General Grievous is Snidely Whiplash in a tin suit?
   <p>Yeah, the people that said that the leaked script wasn't indicative of
   what was to come were wrong.
   <p>Thats as believable as Anakin as Christ.
   <p>Shouldn't have bought into the hype.
   <p>Shame on my thrice.
   <p>I hope some people can enjoy it though. My nephew is going to love it.
   Seeing him enjoy this movie will be worth it to me. But I am just not
   the target audience for Star Wars anymore.
   <h>*edited because I swear too much*
<h>Bailey
   <p>Maybe we need to think that Qui Gon was actually wrong, that it wasn't
   Anakin who is "the one" it is actually his son, Luke, who did not come
   from any virgin birth. It could also be considered that the
   midichlorians themselves defeated the emperor's plan by somehow
   manipulating Vader into wanting to join with his son, thus leading to
   the fall of the emperor. It was, after all, love that finally defeated
   the emperor, not the force. The love of a father for his son. I know
   I'd like to learn more about these midichlorians, and whether or not
   they have a form of sentience that could be communicated with on some
   level. Maybe Lucas will address that with the further Clone Wars
   cartoons, or the live action series he's planning.
   <p>or maybe lucas just didn't know exactly how it was going to play out
   either-- and during the course of writing it he painted himself into
   some corners that were resolved less than satisfactorily. it happens
   in single screenplays all the time, let alone a story that takes place
   over six. that wouldn't be the worst of the PT's faults. whether
   palpatine helped to conceive anakin or not, it's still contrived. I
   don't see why palpatine helping would make it less so, as it just adds
   another level to it (and takes more of the human element out of
   anakin's failure not to mention further complicates the "prophecy".) I
   think if it's only a single line in the movie then fatboy's
   interpretation is still a possibility, at least for those of us who
   may want to willfully ignore the added twist. I don't mind ambiguity-
   but to detail the whole midichlorian\immaculate conception\prophecy
   thing and still leave it ambiguous seems really dumb.
<h>Jim Pappas/Jabba
   <p>GL knew exactly how it was going to play out. He's had this whole
   vision in his head for many years.
   <p>Also, I think maybe many of us are taking all of this way too
   seriously. Star Wars is a movie series, that is all that it is. It is
   popular entertainment, not something that is going to get food into
   the bellies of the poor and starving on this planet. We need to
   maintain perspective here.
<h>Timmay
   <p>"Maybe we need to think that Qui Gon was actually wrong, that it
   wasn't Anakin who is "the one" it is actually his son, Luke, who did
   not come from any virgin birth."
   <p>But it wasn't Luke that killed the emperor, it was Anakin, hence
   destoying the Dark Side and such.
   <p>I just had to chime in at least once on this. Personally, I tried to
   not get too excited about this last episode, but as a 27 year old with
   older brothers who grew up with Star Wars toys all around me and
   having Return of the Jedi as my seminal movie event of my childhood
   it's impossible. We're supposed to see Anakin turn into Darth freaking
   Vader here! You can't blow that, you can't.....you can't.....
   <p>But I digress, back to the discussion......
<h>Russ Fischer
   <p>We're supposed to see Anakin turn into Darth freaking Vader here! You
   can't blow that, you can't.....you can't.....
   <p>I think the last thing I say on this entire topic has to be:
   <p>"Noooooooooooooooooo!"
<h>The Sphinx
   <p>So, does Palpatine or Dooku (or anybody else for that matter) take
   responsibility for the death of Shmi?
<h>Barry Woodward
   <p>It is popular entertainment, not something that is going to get food
   into the bellies of the poor and starving on this planet.Actually,
   from a certain point of view, it does. Lucas has held special
   screenings for each of the prequels and donates all the proceeds to
   various charities.
<h>theslik1
   <p>The thing that's most surprising to me is that no one is really
   spending much time talking about The Duel. THIS is the moment we've
   been waiting for since the end of the second act of SW:ANH. We meet
   again, at last. The circle is now complete; when I left you, I was but
   the learner, now I am the master.
   <p>And now the people who've watched The Duel aren't even mentioning it
   as one of the high points of the film, as particularly emotional or
   even memorable. That's a horrible sign.
   <p>The first horrible sign, of course, was the opening crawl for TPM. In
   retrospect, that told us everything we needed to know about the
   cynical, self-indulgent pointlessness of the entire PT. ROTS is simply
   the natural culmination of a collosal waste of film-making resources
   and the ultimate "fuck you" from Lucas, who seemed determined from the
   start to force feed his extremely beige vision of Star Wars to the
   masses. It's really pretty simple...Lucas had the pick of many
   excellent story ideas and every conceivable technical resource at his
   disposal to ensure thoughtful, well crafted movies. Those factors
   alone make the final product inexcusable...beautiful high-tech
   bilgewater, deliberately and defiantly thrust in our faces by a man
   who was sure we'd pay for it no matter what. He was right, twice. And
   he'll be right again this time.
   <p>It would be interesting to see how this would've all played out if
   ROTS actually were a first rate film. The disconnect between it and
   the first two prequels would be too jarring I think, and that would've
   definitively cast the Prequel Trilogy as a failure (regardless of the
   box office). It makes you wonder if George had to "Lucasize" parts of
   the movie...including The Duel...to ensure that the tone of mediocrity
   remained at least somewhat uniform from film to film. But enough of my
   paranoia...
   <p>My rant isn't a slam at the fans. I know what it's like to be a fan,
   and as a fan it's very disappointing to think of what could have been
   with the right story and the right director.
<h>mastronikolas
   <p>How long till the extremely vocal bashers manage to convince people
   that it's even worse than Menace and Clones and that everybody
   initially liked it because they got caught up in the hype?
   <p>I have my answer: 72 posts. That's how long.
<h>The Dark Shape
   <p>The first horrible sign, of course, was the opening crawl for TPM. In
   retrospect, that told us everything we needed to know about the
   cynical, self-indulgent pointlessness of the entire PT. ROTS is simply
   the natural culmination of a collosal waste of film-making resources
   and the ultimate "fuck you" from Lucas, who seemed determined from the
   start to force feed his extremely beige vision of Star Wars to the
   masses. It's really pretty simple...Lucas had the pick of many
   excellent story ideas and every conceivable technical resource at his
   disposal to ensure thoughtful, well crafted movies. Those factors
   alone make the final product inexcusable...beautiful high-tech
   bilgewater, deliberately and defiantly thrust in our faces by a man
   who was sure we'd pay for it no matter what. He was right, twice. And
   he'll be right again this time.
   <p>It would be interesting to see how this would've all played out if
   ROTS actually were a first rate film. The disconnect between it and
   the first two prequels would be too jarring I think, and that would've
   definitively cast the Prequel Trilogy as a failure (regardless of the
   box office). It makes you wonder if George had to "Lucasize" parts of
   the movie...including The Duel...to ensure that the tone of mediocrity
   remained at least somewhat uniform from film to film. But enough of my
   paranoia...
   <p>My rant isn't a slam at the fans. I know what it's like to be a fan,
   and as a fan it's very disappointing to think of what could have been
   with the right story and the right director.
   <p>You know, I'd insert an attempted, witty "So you've seen the film?"
   comment here, but it works so many times both ways I'm tired of
   hearing it.
<h>Jim Pappas/Jabba
   <p>Actually, from a certain point of view, it does. Lucas has held
   special screenings for each of the prequels and donates all the
   proceeds to various charities.
   <p>"from a certain point of view" . . . I love it. :)
<h>Dan Whitehead
   <p>GL knew exactly how it was going to play out. He's had this whole
   vision in his head for many years.
   <p>Actually, the story of Star Wars has changed constantly since 1977.
   The prequels are full of things that were made up as they went along.
   <p>He may have had the vaguest outline in mind, but the "whole thing" has
   not been in his head for years at all.
   <p>Also, I think maybe many of us are taking all of this way too
   seriously. Star Wars is a movie series, that is all that it is. It is
   popular entertainment, not something that is going to get food into
   the bellies of the poor and starving on this planet. We need to
   maintain perspective here.
   <p>So why do you write about movies and not the poor and starving of this
   planet?
<h>Hewlett
   <p>I'm surprised that no one has mentioned yet that an earliy draft of
   ROTS had Palpatine telling Anakin flat out that he created him
   himself. Now does the fact that Lucas took it out mean he threw out
   the idea completely to go with the immaculate conception/Chosen One
   idea, or did he just not want to spell out Palpatine's hand in
   Anakin's creation and leave it up to the audience to make the
   connection?
<h>Jim Pappas/Jabba
   <p>Actually, the story of Star Wars has changed constantly since 1977.
   The prequels are full of things that were made up as they went along.
   <p>He may have had the vaguest outline in mind, but the "whole thing" has
   not been in his head for years at all.
   <p>So why do you write about movies and not the poor and starving of this
   planet?
   <p>And upon what are you basing your belief that the prequels are full of
   things that were made up as they went along? That is just so wrong. GL
   has had the entire story as an idea in his mind, since day one. He has
   said this himself many times, and he is meticulous and does nothing
   without much planning and foresight. I suggest you do a little
   research.
   <p>As for the remark about my writing about the poor and starving? Ok,
   here we go:
   <p>Hey! Poor! Stop being poor, fools!
   <p>Hey! Staving! Go eat something!
   <p>There, I just wrote about them. . . .:)
<h>Orin_Quon
   <p>That was such an odd thing to say. How does that imply stupidity?
   <p>Because it was written by Devin.
   <p>Perhaps the stupidity bit was your take when reading it from Devin's
   post
   <p>You don´t even have to read it. You should just know.
   <p>Yeah, call bullshit. I am sorry, but you can't argue with reality. The
   REALITY is that Palpatine DID IN FACT have something to do with the
   birth of Anakin, and that it was his machinations that led to the
   creation of Darth Vader. Goddammit, but it is all there on the screen.
   I cannot believe that Sean (Fett) and gravedigger couldn't see this
   coming. I fucking saw it coming, and I have discussed this ad nauseum
   with my friends over the past several YEARS. And as for asking GL, it
   is NOT IRRELEVANT, since Star Wars is HIS creation. Some of us are,
   apparently, more intuitive than others. I can't help it that this is
   so.
   <p>Dude, shut up. Go to TheForce.net or something.
   <p>GL knew exactly how it was going to play out. He's had this whole
   vision in his head for many years.
   <p>Then...
   <p>Also, I think maybe many of us are taking all of this way too
   seriously.
   <p>Hilarious.
   <p>Jim, Waker, join Barry Woodward in the Ignore List.
<h>Dan Whitehead
   <p>And upon what are you basing your belief that the prequels are full of
   things that were made up as they went along? That is just so wrong. GL
   has had the entire story as an idea in his mind, since day one. He has
   said this himself many times, and he is meticulous and does nothing
   without much planning and foresight. I suggest you do a little
   research.
   <p>The fact that I wrote an adaptation of Attack of the Clones, and saw
   the constant revisions to the script as entire scenes and concepts
   were dropped, altered and changed during production.
   <p>Check out the very first seeds of Star Wars. Anakin Starkiller and the
   Book of Whills. The story has evolved and changed, with Lucas picking
   and dumping ideas along the way, from day one.
   <p>And since Luke only got a sister when Carrie Fisher wanted her
   character to be more important in Return of the Jedi, I think it's
   pretty obvious that this isn't some "carved in stone" saga that Lucas
   is dutifully telling.
<h>Jim Pappas/Jabba
   <p>The fact that I wrote an adaptation of Attack of the Clones, and saw
   the constant revisions to the script as entire scenes and concepts
   were dropped, altered and changed during production.
   <p>Check out the very first seeds of Star Wars. Anakin Starkiller and the
   Book of Whills. The story has evolved and changed, with Lucas picking
   and dumping ideas along the way, from day one.
   <p>And since Luke only got a sister when Carrie Fisher wanted her
   character to be more important in Return of the Jedi, I think it's
   pretty obvious that this isn't some "carved in stone" saga that Lucas
   is dutifully telling.
   <p>I didnn't say anything was "carved in stone," I said he has had the
   idea and vision in his head since day one. As with just about
   anything, the details are going to be processed as they go along,
   which is all you are saying. We're not really disagreeing here, just
   looking at it from different perspectives.
<h>Waker
   <p>Yes but that's bullshit. As someone said earlier in this thread, Lucas
   originally wrote that Anakin's father was a Krayt Dragon hunter or
   something.
<h>gl2899
   <p>Please Jim Pappas/Jabba, you seem like a smart guy, you have to know
   that as poorly as the films fit together that Lucas (although he had a
   rough outline in his head) has done this by the seat of his pants.
   <p>You have to give props to Lucas, he is the greatest spin doctor and
   marketing genius of all time.
<h>Jim Pappas/Jabba
   <p>You don't a thing abouut George Lucas if you think the PT was "by the
   seat of his pants." Jesus, just read some of the interviews he's given
   over the years where he discusses the PT. Sure, certain details had to
   be, by necessity, "on the fly," but the overall story line has been in
   his head for many years.
<h>LightningLouie
   <p>You don't a thing abouut George Lucas if you think the PT was "by the
   seat of his pants." Jesus, just read some of the interviews he's given
   over the years where he discusses the PT. Sure, certain details had to
   be, by necessity, "on the fly," but the overall story line has been in
   his head for many years.
   <p>From what I've seen from both fansites and official materials, like
   Bouzereau's Annotated Screenplays, the "overall storyline" has changed
   so much over the years that the final version is virtually
   unrecognizable from the original conception.
   <p>Answer me this: Why is it essential for fans to maintain the myth that
   Lucas planned everything out in advance back in 1974? Film, unlike
   books, is a medium based on contingency. Stuff is always going to be
   going in and out of a movie based on the availability of performers,
   the amount of money involved, and totally random events. On top of
   that, some ideas just become unworkable or silly or just plain bad
   over time. I'm sure that Lucas had a much bigger role planned for Jar
   Jar over the course of the prequels, but minimized his presence when
   it became apparent that everyone --EVERYONE!-- hated the shit out of
   the character, and not just rabid fanboys and movie critics.
   <p>There's no shame in enjoying an epic saga, even if the author was just
   making it up as he or she went along. What matters is that the author
   maintains a certain level of quality and consistency over the course
   of the story-- i.e., "as long as it's good." Insisting on a single
   unifying vision, especially as it pertains to characters like Boba
   Fett, Maul, and Grevious --all more the products of toy licensing
   conferences than some grand Joseph Campbell mythopoeic crap-- suggests
   an inability to enjoy the movies for what they are. Or maybe you
   aren't enjoying them all that much to begin with? Search your
   feelings, you know this to be true...
   <p>Besides, as everyone knows by now, Lucas swiped the plot and
   characters from Jack Kirby's New Gods comics and the Kinks' Part 1
   Lola Versus Powerman and the Money-Go-Round.
<h>Litmus Configuration
   <p>You have to give props to Lucas, he is the greatest spin doctor and
   marketing genius of all time.
   <p>Absolutely 100% correct. (Well, aside from certain dictators
   throughout history.)
   <p>I guess if Lucas really had the whole story figured out 30 years ago,
   he would never have even publicly discussed 9 films, then 12 films,
   then 9 films again, then 6 films. And yet he did. He said in
   interviews that EPs 7, 8 and 9 would be about a character who survives
   JEDI. So much for that story. It wasn't until 1996 that Lucas first
   publicly stated that the whole Saga would be comprised of only six
   films, nearly 20 years after the first film hit screens and became a
   global pop culture phenomenon (contrary to apologists trying to
   downplay the impact of STAR WARS in order to make the lackluster
   Prequels look better in comparison.)
   <p>I don't believe a damn thing Lucas or his cronies say anymore. I can
   only look at his work and judge it on its own merits.
<h>Litmus Configuration
   <p>Great post, Louie!
<h>Jim Pappas/Jabba
   <p>I can't understand how any of you believe that George Lucas "made up"
   the plots of the PT as he went along. Jeesh. I'm not arguing about
   this anymore. I know what the truth is, and I'm happy with my
   understanding of reality. If some of you want to think what it is you
   think, don't let me try and convince you otherwise.
<h>gl2899
   <p>Same here, Jim.
   <p>Let's just agree to disagree. Even though 30 years of interviews with
   Lucas, documentaries and early scripts back up my theory ;).
   <h>*edit to note:
   <p>It bugs me that Lucas recently said that eps 7-9 were fabricated by
   fanboys and the press. Even though his comments on the three trilogies
   are well doucmented.
   <p>Maybe he is starting to believe in the Jedi mind trick.
   <p>LUCAS: I never said I had plans for episodes VII through VIII
   <p>FANBOYS: You never said you had plans for episodes VII through VIII
<h>Litmus Configuration
   <p>I'm not arguing about this anymore.
   <p>Good. Because you've obviously closed your mind to any other viewpoint
   but your own.
<h>LightningLouie
   <p>I guess if Lucas really had the whole story figured out 30 years ago,
   he would never have even publicly discussed 9 films, then 12 films,
   then 9 films again, then 6 films. And yet he did. He said in
   interviews that EPs 7, 8 and 9 would be about a character who survives
   JEDI. So much for that story.
   <p>I often wonder how much of that was Lucas and how much of it was Gary
   Kurtz. I'm not sure to what extent Kurtz was involved creatively
   (though his absence is felt in ROTJ), but I always got the feeling
   that he saw the SW saga as more of a grand tragic epic with a
   decades-long story arc than Lucas' fairy tale in space conception. In
   one interview, I recall Kurtz saying that only Leia would survive and
   she would end up in Episode XII as the "People's Quen" after the
   Emperor had been deposed. Darth Vader was always going to die in
   Episode VI (and possibly Luke with him), but the Empire would exist
   for some time after, albeit in a reduced form. The prequel trilogy
   would be largely disconnected from the other movies, with the first
   film set generations before the rest of the story, dealing with the
   foundation of the Jedi Order. But there's no real evidence to
   substantiate any of these claims, and Kurtz was probably just drawing
   on conversations he'd had with Lucas back in the '70s.
<h>LightningLouie
   <p>Great post, Louie!
   <p>Thanks. I've been here for a while, just trying to get my bearings
   straight. (Also, I've rediscovered that either I'm a terrible typist
   or my keyboard is a POS.)
<h>LightningLouie
   <p>I can't understand how any of you believe that George Lucas "made up"
   the plots of the PT as he went along. Jeesh. I'm not arguing about
   this anymore. I know what the truth is, and I'm happy with my
   understanding of reality. If some of you want to think what it is you
   think, don't let me try and convince you otherwise.
   <p>Actually, I could swear that I just read an interview in which Lucas
   said that most of the prequel trilogy was "filler," and that Ep. III
   was the real "meat" of the PT. In other words, most of the events in
   Eps. I and II were just a means of killing time before Anakin's
   fateful lava slalom.
   <p>Believe what you want. I think Lucas had the idea of doing a big outer
   space adventure in his head back in the '70s, but that was about as
   specific as it got. He narrowed down his focus by reading SF novels
   and Marvel Comics, and possibly Joseph Campbell as well, but probably
   more Castaneda. I suspect the theme of kids redeeming the father
   probably didn't occur to him until well in the pre-production of
   Empire, and I seriously doubt Leia was even going to be a blood
   relation until sometime between Empire and Jedi, regardless of the
   rumors about Fisher wanting a bigger role. In short, most of the
   transcendent themes were things Lucas came up with after 1977 and
   applied retroactively to the saga through the magic of filmmaking and
   the gullibility of fans who couldn't accept that he'd improvised most
   of the storyline.
   <p>Look, just consider this: In the first draft of Star Wars, Darth
   Vader, the principal villain of the OT, the central character of the
   entire saga, is a minor Imperial functionary who speaks two lines and
   is never seen or mentioned again.
<h>Miasta
   <p>Look, just consider this: In the first draft of Star Wars, Darth
   Vader, the principal villain of the OT, the central character of the
   entire saga, is a minor Imperial functionary who speaks two lines and
   is never seen or mentioned again.
   <p>Wouldn't it be cool if Lucas let some ILM underlings or intern types
   at Lucas film, who have been waiting in the wings, getting coffee and
   stuff for the senior artist for years, have a go at doing an animated
   version of the first draft of Star Wars just for a goof? Well, woudn't
   it? No? Fine! I'd buy it, or watch it on The Cartoon Network! Cary
   on...
<h>Leto II
   <p>I often wonder how much of that was Lucas and how much of it was Gary
   Kurtz. I'm not sure to what extent Kurtz was involved creatively
   (though his absence is felt in ROTJ), but I always got the feeling
   that he saw the SW saga as more of a grand tragic epic with a
   decades-long story arc than Lucas' fairy tale in space conception. In
   one interview, I recall Kurtz saying that only Leia would survive and
   she would end up in Episode XII as the "People's Quen" after the
   Emperor had been deposed. Darth Vader was always going to die in
   Episode VI (and possibly Luke with him), but the Empire would exist
   for some time after, albeit in a reduced form. The prequel trilogy
   would be largely disconnected from the other movies, with the first
   film set generations before the rest of the story, dealing with the
   foundation of the Jedi Order. But there's no real evidence to
   substantiate any of these claims, and Kurtz was probably just drawing
   on conversations he'd had with Lucas back in the '70s.
   <p>To wit, from Cinescape Online, circa the summer of 1999:
   <h>Kurtz Reveals 'SW 1-9' Plot
   <p>Gary Kurtz, the producer of the original versions of Star Wars: A New
   Hope and The Empire Strikes Back, spoke at a Sci-Fi Expo convention
   audience in Plano, Texas yesterday. After reportedly offering up a
   mixed review of The Phantom Menace, Kurtz shared the original plans
   for all nine episodes of the Star Wars saga circa 1980, according to
   TheForce.net. When Lucas changed course with Return of the Jedi, Kurtz
   opted to leave the Star Wars saga and produce The Dark Crystal with
   Jim Henson. What follows is the fan site's description of what Kurtz
   allegedly relayed (no doubt to a room full of stunned Star Wars fans),
   and a very cool glimpse into what might have been:
   <l>EPISODE 1: Was to focus on the origins of
   the Jedi Knights and how they are initiated and
   trained.
   <l>EPISODE 2: Introduction and development of
   Obi-Wan Kenobi.
   <l>EPISODE 3: Introduction and life of Vader.
   <l>EPISODE 4: There were seven different drafts
   of the film. At one point, they pursued buying
   the rights to Hidden Fortress because of the
   strong similarities. At one point, Luke was a
   female, Han was Luke's brother, Luke's father
   was the one in prison (interesting point for
   some debates) and the film featured 40
   wookies.
   <l>EPISODE 5: Once written, the screenplay of
   Empire is almost exactly what is seen on
   screen. The only cut scenes were those
   involving wampas in the rebel base (cut
   because of time and unsolved technical
   glitches) and about two minutes of Luke/Yoda
   Jedi training with no real dialog.
   <l>EPISODE 6: Leia was to be elected "Queen of
   her people" leaving her isolated. Han was to
   die. Luke confronted Vader and went on with
   his life alone. Leia was not to be Luke's sister.
   <l>EPISODE 7: Third trilogy was to focus on
   Luke's life as a Jedi, with very few details
   planned out.
   <l>EPISODE 8: Luke's sister (not Leia) appears
   from another part of the galaxy.
   <l>EPISODE 9: First appearance of the Emperor.
   <p>And then there's this passage in the 1980 work Once Upon A Galaxy: A
   Journal of The Making of Empire Strikes Back, by Alan Arnold (pp.
   247-48):
   <p>Alan Arnold: Tell me more about the overall concept of the Star Wars
   saga.
   <p>George Lucas: There are essentially nine films in a series of three
   trilogies.The first trilogy is about the young Ben Kenobi and the
   early life of Luke's father when Luke was a little boy. This trilogy
   takes place some twenty years before the second trilogy, which
   includes Star Wars and Empire. About a year or two passes between each
   story of the trilogy and about twenty years pass between the
   trilogies. The entire saga spans about fifty-five years.
   <p>AA: How much is written?
   <p>GL: I have story treatments on all nine. I also have voluminous notes,
   histories, and other material I've developed for various purposes.
   Some of it will be used, some not. Originally, when I wrote Star Wars,
   it developed into an epic on the scale of War and Peace, so big I
   couldn't possibly make it into a movie. So I cut it in half, but it
   was still too big, so I cut each half into three parts. I then had
   material for six movies. After the success of Star Wars I added
   another trilogy, but stopped there, primarily because reality took
   over. After all, it takes three years to prepare and make a Star Wars
   picture. How many years are left? So I'm still left with three
   trilogies of nine films. At two hours each, that's about eighteen
   hours of film!
   <p>Straight from the equine's embouchement. Plus there're other Nine-Film
   LucasQuotes in other sources, like his Splinter of the Mind's Eye
   foreword.
<h>Ahoatam
   <p>For all his film interestsnot just the companies but the extension of
   Raiders' Indiana Jones character into two more features and a TV
   serieshe was, and remains, a doting, full-time dad. But he had a
   neglected child, the Star Wars saga, that needed his help in growing
   up. Lucas began writing the new trilogy, starting with Phantom Menace,
   in 1994.
   <p>Furthermore, Lucas says in the commentary of ANH DVD that he wrote a
   backstory for each character, and that fed into what eventually made
   the prequel story. He didn't have 6 or 9 ready-to-go screenplays, as
   is the popular belief.
   <p>I, too, subscribe to the paint-himself-in-corner viewpoint.
<h>Amphibatron
   <p>And upon what are you basing your belief that the prequels are full of
   things that were made up as they went along? That is just so wrong. GL
   has had the entire story as an idea in his mind, since day one. He has
   said this himself many times, and he is meticulous and does nothing
   without much planning and foresight. I suggest you do a little
   research.
   <p>If you look at early pre-production artwork of episode 1 you will see
   that Qui-Gon is nowhere to be seen. Obi-Wan had Qui-Gon's role all to
   himself. Before Episode II Lucas had no idea what a Dooku was. Why
   else did he have his design team coming up with different sorts of
   Sith apprentices for episode II before he came up with Dooku?
   Grievous? Nope, no idea of Grievous until he told his art department
   to design a droid general. Look at the make-up job on Palpatine in
   episode II and notice the differences in his appearance in Episode
   III. The reason for the change is because Lucas at first was flirting
   with the idea that Sidious would wind up looking like the Emperor of
   ROTJ because the darkside had slowly degraded his appearance. He
   obviously changed his mind on that and now Mace is responsible.
   <p>If you look at all of these major storypoints of the prequels:
   Qui-Gon, Dooku, Sidious' appearance and hell, just read a making of
   book you'll realise that Lucas had the vaguest outline and the rest
   has been made up as he went along. I mean he said himself in a recent
   interview that Episode 1 had about 20 % of whatever basic storypoints
   he worked out years ago. That leaves 80% made up on the fly. The same
   percerntage for Epiosde II. Only Sith seems to encompass the majority
   of the back story Lucas originally planned out.
<h>Ahoatam
   05-07-2005, 05:11 PM
   <p>Back on topic:
   <p>The script seemed to have a lot of not-so-subtle remarks that related
   directly to today's political and military situation. Until now, Star
   Wars has really been a reflection on past political/military conflicts
   (like the Third Reich) and this marks a noticable turn towards current
   events.
   <p>How much of this carried over into the final film, and how much of it
   do you think audiences will pick up on? In the somewhat divided
   political state the US is in now, does Lucas risk alienating a portion
   of his fan base by comparing the President to the Emporer? Comments
   from those who have seen the film, please.
<h>Waker
   <p>If they support Bush, they deserve to be alienated. Here's hoping they
   can never enjoy the films again.
<h>Litmus Configuration
   <p>I don't think it's obvious enough for Bush supporters to notice. It's
   not as clear-cut as, say, Sam Rockwell aping Dubya as Zaphod "Un-dumb"
   Beeblebrox in THE HITCHHIKER'S GUIDE TO THE GALAXY.
   <p>There was another strange bit of modern wording in EP3 though (on par
   with "The Old Folks Home" in EP2) and I can't quite remember the line.
   It's something Obi-Wan says just before he leaves Anakin at the
   shipyards on Coruscant. I can't seem to find it in my copy of the
   script. Anyone?
<h>Bailey
   <p>when obi wan and anakin part ways after the opening battle, obi wan
   makes reference to anakin having to be the "poster boy." when they
   separate for the "last" time there's not really anything modern (wild
   bantha chase is the closest thing.)
<h>Litmus Configuration
   <p>when obi wan and anakin part ways after the opening battle, obi wan
   makes reference to anakin having to be the "poster boy." when they
   separate for the "last" time there's not really anything modern (wild
   bantha chase is the closest thing.)
   <p>Yep, you're right. "Poster boy." Weird.
<h>Ahoatam
   <p>If they support Bush, they deserve to be alienated. Here's hoping they
   can never enjoy the films again.
   <p>You know, I'm not ignorant to the fact my political leanings are in
   the minority around here, and I'm certainly not going to make any
   futile effort to change that. I do wonder why so many outspoken
   members of the "Party of the people" are so bent on insulting those
   who don't see eye to eye on them, especially on completely unrelated
   issues.
   <p>Me? I'm all for bipartisanship in enjoyment of arts and entertainment.
<h>LightningLouie
   <p>Wouldn't it be cool if Lucas let some ILM underlings or intern types
   at Lucas film, who have been waiting in the wings, getting coffee and
   stuff for the senior artist for years, have a go at doing an animated
   version of the first draft of Star Wars just for a goof? Well, woudn't
   it? No? Fine! I'd buy it, or watch it on The Cartoon Network! Cary
   on...
   <p>Hell no, I'd pay to see that.
   <p>Someone actually wrote a fan script of A Princess of Ondos, the
   proposed second installment of The Adventures of The Starkiller,
   mentioned in passing at the end of Lucas' first draft of Star Wars:
<h>Eschatos
   <p>I think you're saying that Kenobi should have been the central
   character of the PT. I couldn't agree more.
   <p>That's exactly what I was saying. (I was more focused on why
   Anakin/Vader should have been a supporting character in that post, so
   I understand the cautiousness of your post.) If you think about it,
   actually, the films could be much more solid as they if they were
   edited to focus more on Kenobi and less on Skywalker. The whole
   problem with the PT is that Lucas, even during Ep. I, was too
   concerned with giving Anakin significant screen coverage. Most of
   Anakin's involvment in I and II are just subplots on steroids anyway
   ...
   <p>Also, if they had gone that route, it would have made for a stronger
   saga. The PT could have been the story of the benevolent father
   failing to deliver his son from a path of evil and the OT would have
   been the negative of that: the benevolent son delivers the father from
   that path. The ramifications just cascade from there ... especially
   when you consider the tension it would have given the Yoda and Sidious
   relationship by making them the mentors of the central figures in the
   story: the patriarchs.
<h>LightningLouie
   <p>Straight from the equine's embouchement. Plus there're other Nine-Film
   LucasQuotes in other sources, like his Splinter of the Mind's Eye
   foreword.
   <p>Thanks. I'd also read some of those details in the IGN interview
   from... Jeebus, some time ago.
<h>Waker
   <p>You know, I'm not ignorant to the fact my political leanings are in
   the minority around here, and I'm certainly not going to make any
   futile effort to change that. I do wonder why so many outspoken
   members of the "Party of the people" are so bent on insulting those
   who don't see eye to eye on them, especially on completely unrelated
   issues.
   <p>Me? I'm all for bipartisanship in enjoyment of arts and entertainment.
   I never said, or even implied, what "party" I'm of in the post you
   responded to. I'm apolitical, but I do think Bush and his supporters
   deserve only the worst. I do like the "voice of reason" arguments from
   the right, though, where they say people who hate them simply don't
   see eye to eye with them, when in fact, most people who hate them hate
   them, and rightly so, because they're evil incarnate.
<h>Eschatos
   <p>Back on topic:
   <p>The script seemed to have a lot of not-so-subtle remarks that related
   directly to today's political and military situation. Until now, Star
   Wars has really been a reflection on past political/military conflicts
   (like the Third Reich) and this marks a noticable turn towards current
   events.
   <p>Technically, the Empire was pretty topical for the Cold War period.
   Also, considering the sequels were released in the post-Vietnam era,
   the Emperor has always been topical (Lucas has stated many times that
   Sidious is a fictional version of Nixon).
<h>LightningLouie
   <p>Back on topic:
   <p>The script seemed to have a lot of not-so-subtle remarks that related
   directly to today's political and military situation. Until now, Star
   Wars has really been a reflection on past political/military conflicts
   (like the Third Reich) and this marks a noticable turn towards current
   events.
   <p>How much of this carried over into the final film, and how much of it
   do you think audiences will pick up on? In the somewhat divided
   political state the US is in now, does Lucas risk alienating a portion
   of his fan base by comparing the President to the Emporer? Comments
   from those who have seen the film, please.
   <p>It's nothing new from Lucas; the political subtext was there from the
   beginning, though it got submerged as the movies went on. The Emperor
   was conceived of as a Nixon figure, a crafty politico turned paranoid
   and inaccessible, and there was always the idea of a technologically
   superior military force being thwarted by primitive indigenous
   guerillas, like the U.S. armed forces in Vietnam. (Remember, Lucas was
   originally going to follow up American Graffiti with Apocalypse Now,
   so the Ewoks were probably his way of exploring that theme after
   losing control of the project to Coppola.) In one of the deleted
   scenes of Luke and Biggs on Tatooine, Biggs expresses concern that the
   Empire will draft Luke into service. Star Wars is definitely a product
   of the Watergate era, but it came out during the Carter
   administration, so everybody associates it with the goofy, hedonistic
   late '70s. By the '80s, Reagan and his speechwriters were using Lucas'
   imagery as a metaphor for the Cold War, something he probably never
   anticipated or desired. He never got over the use of "Star Wars" as a
   collective term for orbital missile defense. In Ep. I, Lucas repays
   Reagan in kind by naming the perennially befuddled and dim-witted
   Trade Federation leader Nute Gunray; the "Nute" comes from Knute
   Rockne All American, one of Reagan's best-known films, and as for
   "Gunray," just transpose the syllables. For a guy who celebrates
   forgiveness and reconciliation, Lucas can sure hold a grudge; after
   all, he named the second banana bad guy in Willow after Pauline Kael,
   who bashed Star Wars back in 1977, eleven years earlier.
   <p>I would be genuinely surprised if most viewers made any sort of
   connections between the storyline in Ep. III and current events,
   mainly because it sounds as though the political aspects of
   Palpatine's rise to power are dowplayed in favor of balls-to-the-wall
   action. (Besides, as we all know, Lucas had it planned out in advance
   all along, so any parallels are purely coincidental.) In all
   likelihood, there will be one or two batshit crazy right-wing Medved
   types who label Lucas a traitor after making all those good movies
   about upholding conservative values, but most people won't care or
   notice. And they'd be wrong about Lucas' politics, too; despite being
   insanely wealthy, he still seems to regard himself as a radical
   experimental filmmaker and unreconstructed liberal who managed to beat
   the Man at his own game, acquiring his independence one marketing
   license at a time. (Insert sarcastic comment about billionaire
   entertainer lecturing about the dangers of attachment and materialism
   here.) But even if he wanted to make Ep. III overtly political, I
   doubt he'd be canny or subtle enough to pull it off, even in a dorky
   Star Trek kinda way.
<h>Ahoatam
   <p>Well put, Louie, thanks. That seems to be a perfectly reasonable
   explanation and by no means a stretch. It's a subtext that fits
   perfectly.
   <p>Now, if you don't mind, I'll go back to being evil incarnate because
   of my politcal alignment. Hail Satan!
<h>LightningLouie
   <p>Yep, you're right. "Poster boy." Weird.
   <p>Well now I can really understand Vader's rage. If I'd gone from being
   an interstellar celebrity whose image adorned the walls of hot,
   scantily-clad, blue tentacle-headed space chicks the galaxy over to a
   fried husk with prosthetic limbs in a gimp suit, I'd be mightily
   pissed.
<h>The Sphinx
   <p>a fried husk with prosthetic limbs in a gimp suitThat's the best
   description of Vader ever.
<h>gl2899
   <p>Well put, Louie, thanks. That seems to be a perfectly reasonable
   explanation and by no means a stretch. It's a subtext that fits
   perfectly.
   <p>Now, if you don't mind, I'll go back to being evil incarnate because
   of my politcal alignment. Hail Satan!
   <p>This made me chuckle.
   <p>I notice Jim Pappas dissapeared :( Come back Jim!
   <p>Please?
<h>Andrew Ellis
   <p>Maybe he's asleep or out for the night, like the rest of the normals.
<h>Mr. Creosote
   <p>For a guy who celebrates forgiveness and reconciliation, Lucas can
   sure hold a grudge; after all, he named the second banana bad guy in
   Willow after Pauline Kael, who bashed Star Wars back in 1977, eleven
   years earlier.
   <p>Come on, that was obviously just joking around with naming bad guys
   after the critics. There's also the two-headed monster known as the
   Ebersisk, and while I'm pretty sure they didn't like Howard the Duck,
   they were very kind to most of his films.
<h>Samurai Mike
   <p>So, does anyone know when we're gonna see some proper reviews up here?
<h>Holy Diver
   <p>Here's a question: Is google broken where you are?
   <p>Just askin'. ;)
<h>Samurai Mike
   <p>Here's a question: Is google broken where you are?
   <p>Just askin'. ;)
   <p>I mean proper CHUD reviews. Naturally.
<p>Jim Pappas/Jabba
   <p>If you look at early pre-production artwork of episode 1 you will see
   that Qui-Gon is nowhere to be seen. Obi-Wan had Qui-Gon's role all to
   himself. Before Episode II Lucas had no idea what a Dooku was. Why
   else did he have his design team coming up with different sorts of
   Sith apprentices for episode II before he came up with Dooku?
   Grievous? Nope, no idea of Grievous until he told his art department
   to design a droid general. Look at the make-up job on Palpatine in
   episode II and notice the differences in his appearance in Episode
   III. The reason for the change is because Lucas at first was flirting
   with the idea that Sidious would wind up looking like the Emperor of
   ROTJ because the darkside had slowly degraded his appearance. He
   obviously changed his mind on that and now Mace is responsible.
   <p>If you look at all of these major storypoints of the prequels:
   Qui-Gon, Dooku, Sidious' appearance and hell, just read a making of
   book you'll realise that Lucas had the vaguest outline and the rest
   has been made up as he went along. I mean he said himself in a recent
   interview that Episode 1 had about 20 % of whatever basic storypoints
   he worked out years ago. That leaves 80% made up on the fly. The same
   percerntage for Epiosde II. Only Sith seems to encompass the majority
   of the back story Lucas originally planned out.
   <p>What is it you think I'm saying? Again, the idea for the PT has been
   in his head, the general storyline. I'm not talking about the nuts and
   bolts.
<h>Litmus Configuration
   <p>GL knew exactly how it was going to play out. He's had this whole
   vision in his head for many years.
   <p>Your own words. Nice backpedalling.
<h>Amphibatron
   <p>What is it you think I'm saying? Again, the idea for the PT has been
   in his head, the general storyline. I'm not talking about the nuts and
   bolts.
   <p>This is what I think your saying...
   <p>Originally Posted by Jim Pappas/Jabba:
   <p>And upon what are you basing your belief that the prequels are full of
   things that were made up as they went along? That is just so wrong. GL
   has had the entire story as an idea in his mind, since day one. He has
   said this himself many times, and he is meticulous and does nothing
   without much planning and foresight. I suggest you do a little
   research.
   <p>Which is the exact quote I originally replied to and which is saying
   something completely different than what you are saying now. You asked
   why people believe the prequels are full of things made up as he went
   along and I gave you numerous examples.
<h>mastronikolas
   <p>I finally saw it.
   <p>It's a very powerful piece of film-making and the first time we get
   real characters and real emotion in the prequel trilogy. The ending is
   near-perfect. Vader being entombed in the suit, Yoda's humility after
   failing the Jedi and the Republic, the delivery of the twins. Amazing
   stuff.
   <p>It's perfectly obvious that the Jedi were responsible for their own
   fall, paying the price for being blinded , dogmatic and overconfident.
   And Lucas doesn't shy away from the fact that his movie is about
   brother turning against brother. The characters face horrible dilemmas
   and no one walks away unscathed.
   <p>The opening battle is awe-inspiring. Words can do it no justice. The
   only thing I can say is that the reveal of the hundreds of capital
   ships fighting far surpasses the reveal of the Star Destroyer in
   Episode IV.
   <p>Grievous is a total red herring and a wild goose chase for Obi-Wan. If
   you expect that, you'll like his part (which is a very minor one). If
   you expect the death machine from the cartoons, you'll be
   disappointed.
   <p>And there's a wickedly irreverent homage to E.T.
   <p>Finally, I predict that there will be a lot of wee ones crying their
   little hearts out when Anakin starts burning alive. It's very graphic
   and heart-wrenching. This is definitely not a movie for small
   children.
<h>Alan "Nordling" Cerny
   <p>Oddly enough, mastronikolas, of all the CHUD posters yours was the one
   I was waiting for. Thanks for that. Can't wait...
<h>Litmus Configuration
   <p>And there's a wickedly irreverent homage to E.T.
   <p>I missed that. Where is it?
<h>mastronikolas
   <p>Yoda's departure from Kashyyk:
   <p>"I'll miss you Tarful. I'll miss you Chewbacca". And then he blasts
   off in his little rocket ship!
   <p>By the way, I saw the film version and there was no scene depicting
   Wat Tambor's epic fight against anakin. Was that scene in the DLP
   version?
<h>cognizant
   <p>Yoda saying he'll miss people doesnt sound..Yoda-ish...(oO)
<h>mastronikolas
   <p>Considering the stress he's under and the fact that they helped him
   survive and escape, I'll accept it.
   <p>Unless it means that he was faking his speech impediment all the time!
<h>cognizant
   <p>Well, as a 'thank you', its acceptable, but I thought he was beyond
   this material world and 'missing' people, and all that stuff. But then
   again, I guess he doesnt fully come to grips with the SW Buddhist-lite
   notion of reality until episode 5.
<h>Litmus Configuration
   <p>Yoda's departure from Kashyyk:
   <p>"I'll miss you Tarful. I'll miss you Chewbacca". And then he blasts
   off in his little rocket ship!
   <p>I guess the close-up on Yoda's face as the hatch shuts closed is what
   really makes it an homage to E.T., if that's what it really is. The
   good-byes and ship take-off also work as homage but are also necessary
   to getting Yoda off Kashyyk.
   <p>By the way, I saw the film version and there was no scene depicting
   Wat Tambor's epic fight against anakin. Was that scene in the DLP
   version?
   <p>Wat Tambor was barely in the DLP version. Just enough for the Cult of
   Wat to jizz their slacks and for the rest of us to roll our eyes.
   <p>To be fair, I was actually hoping to see more of Wat before he got
   diced. I was hoping to have a quick reminder of why I hate this
   ill-conceived character before he is then thankfully murdered. No such
   luck. Wat is merely a blur in his demise.
<h>Estel
   <p>My take, copied and pasted from a message I wrote someone on the night
   I saw it. I reserve the right to modify this kneejerk opinion when I
   see it again with a normal audience on release.
   <p>Yeah, it's not so good, but it's not a disaster. This one is
   particularly frustrating for me, though, because it has entire moments
   and scenes that DO play, that work emotionally, thematically, or
   whatever, but are constantly being undermined by glaring problems:
   poorly written/delivered lines, moments of weird, choppy, meaningless
   editing (Ben Burtt fucks this movie backasswards just like Clones),
   small scenelets that are over before they start (the 2nd act is
   plagued by this), and just mismanaged stuff that could have been
   great, or at least passable.
   <p>It's just so painfully obvious that Lucas' reach exceeds his grasp.
   There's some great non-verbal bits set to music: I loved the clones
   turning on the jedi across the galaxy, beautiful score, and a real
   sense of loss, but it's pretty contextless. Similarly, he goes for
   this Coppola-esque Birth of the Twins/Birth of Vader intercutting
   that's really magnificent all by itself (Padme's screams during labor
   cutting to the absolutely wrecked Anakin screaming as his limbs are
   re-attached) but it belongs in a different, better movie. He breaks
   his own SW rules all over the place in this scene (there's actually a
   POV shot from INSIDE the helmet, we see what a frightening isolation
   chamber being in the suit is).
   <p>McDiarmid is nasty, campy fun, just as he was in ROTJ, and everyone
   else pretty much acquits themselves admirably. McGregor has fantastic
   moments, but also many, many others, where he clearly just can't take
   this bullshit seriously anymore (see his lines to Dooku before they
   fight). Portman and Christensen are much improved, especially
   Christensen, who I think does an admirable job with an almost
   unplayabe character. Who knows why anyone in this movie does anything,
   other than puppetmaster Lucas.
   <p>I thought that much of the duel was really good, actually, contrary to
   the Chud crew consensus. I actually thought that bar a few lines, the
   last fourth of the film was a hint of the A-game that Lucas could have
   brought to the whole deal, back in the day, had he cared to. He
   clearly took his time with certain sequences (the purge/assault on the
   temple, the massacre/baptism, oops I mean "Birthing" sequence), and he
   pretty much went ahead and neglected the connective tissue that makes
   such sequences make sense, just like in the last film.
   <p>Again, before I'm torn to shreds, this is just quick thoughts jotted
   down after seeing it last week. I actually feel a little nicer to it
   in the light of day. I'll make up my mind on the 19th.
<h>Amphibatron
   <p>Wait, can someone confirm that the Wookiees give Tarzan yells like
   Chewbacca in Jedi? Please tell me this doesn't actually happen.
<h>Russ Fischer
   <p>Wait, can someone confirm that the Wookiees give Tarzan yells like
   Chewbacca in Jedi? Please tell me this doesn't actually happen.
   <p>It does.
<h>mastronikolas
   <p>Not in my print. At least not in the foreground.
<h>mastronikolas
   <p>...there's actually a POV shot from INSIDE the helmet, we see what a
   frightening isolation chamber being in the suit is
   <p>My favourite shot in the whole film. It really ads depth to Vader
   asking Luke to remove his helmet, so that he can see him with his own
   eyes.
   <p>My favourite sequences (apart from the amazing opening) were centered
   on Obi-Wan. His realisation of what he must do, his confrontation of
   Padme and his final words with Anakin are really strong. Terrific
   acting by Ewan.
<h>Amphibatron
   <p>It does.
   <p>Mother of fuck.
<h>Eli Ca$h
   <p>I don't think I have much to say about the film that hasn't already
   been said in this thread. My take is pretty much right in the middle
   of everything mentioned here. I didn't love it like I wanted to, but I
   did enjoy it overall.
   <p>The sad thing is, I think if Anakin's turn to the dark side had
   worked, everything else would be forgivable.
   <p>My biggest regret about these films will always be that he directed
   them all himself. He could have stepped aside after TPM and let
   someone else handle AOTC and ROTS. Considering some of the names that
   were said to be interested, I don't think we would have seen most of
   the things that bugged me in those films.
   <p>I can't imagine Spielberg doing that crappy space diner scene or the
   floating fruit scene. I think He would have found some way to make the
   Anakin-Padme dialogue work. I can't imagine David Fincher having so
   much droid comedy in ROTS, nor the terrible Windu death/Anakin turns
   scene. I also can't imagine him having Anakin hop on a droid's head
   and ride over to continue the duel with Obi-Wan.
<h>Amphibatron
   <p>Not in my print. At least not in the foreground.
   <p>Does this mean I have to call the theatre and ask them if they are
   showing the print with the retarded tarzan yell or without it?
   Seriously, the only theatre getting my money is the one without. I'll
   be damned if I'll relive the lowest point in the OT come may 19th.
<h>Alan "Nordling" Cerny
   <p>Oh c'mon. If you can stomach it on ROTJ, you can stomach it here. It's
   as if people must have their SW totally humorless. So Lucas can't tell
   a joke to save his ass, get over it.
<h>Amphibatron
   <p>Oh c'mon. If you can stomach it on ROTJ, you can stomach it here. It's
   as if people must have their SW totally humorless. So Lucas can't tell
   a joke to save his ass, get over it.
   <p>Why should I have to stomach it to begin with? Can't Lucas make one
   goddamn movie where I don't have to either stomach something , forgive
   something, overlook something, pretend that didn't happen, fast
   forward through that part, cover my ears, scratch out my eyes....
<h>Suttytx
   <p>The Tarzan yell and the Sarlac burp in ROTJ are the two lowest points
   of humor in the OT for me. Hate to see it repeated in ROTS.
<h>Samurai Mike
   <p>The Tarzan yell and the Sarlac burp in ROTJ are the two lowest points
   of humor in the OT for me. Hate to see it repeated in ROTS.
   <p>The sarlacc burp was okay until Lucas changed the creature to the
   Penis From Hell. Now it farts instead (and has teeth around its arse,
   or something).
<p>Litmus Configuration
   <p>I thought I might have heard the Tarzan yell buried beneath a shot
   when a Wookiee jumps on a Seperatist vehicle but it was so covered
   over with other sound effects and music, I couldn't be sure. (To be
   honest, most of the Kashyyk stuff didn't really engage me, so I don't
   remember a lot of the little details.) And yeah, just because the
   Tarzan yell was in JEDI doesn't mean that it was ever a good idea.
<h>Tom Roberts
   <p>91% at Rotten Tomatoes at the moment (22 reviews). That seems pretty
   strong to me.
<h>devincf
   <p>22 reviews is nothing.
<h>wadew1
   <p>Yeah, only 200 more reviews for Rottentomatoes to tally up.
<h>Andre Dellamorte
   <p>At this point, I'd expect mostly positives, that seems to eb the way
   of the film right now, but, yeah, you're counting the eggs at this
   point.
<h>devincf
   <p>It'll go fresh, btw. We've been pummeled by the last two so an OK Star
   Wars film, which this is, will get a good rating. Hell, my review
   (3000 words. Sorry in advance) will be rated fresh on RT.
<h>Andre Dellamorte
   <p>And since both previous PT films have fresh ratings, I think this one
   should easily follow. What that has to do with anything...
<h>Andrew Ellis
   <p>I think the Tarzan yell is pretty funny if it's now presented to have
   a history as a traditional Wookiee battle cry.
<h>Tom Roberts
   <p>22 reviews is nothing.
   <p>While I understand your point, it's not nothing. It still indicates
   that this will be very well received critically. I'll bet you $5 (aus)
   that it settles above 80%.
<h>mastronikolas
   <p>Devin & Dre, you will simply not rest until the world sways to your
   point of view, eh?
   <p>Is it that difficult to agree to disagree with others?
<h>mclihah2
   <p>Back on topic:
   <p>The script seemed to have a lot of not-so-subtle remarks that related
   directly to today's political and military situation. Until now, Star
   Wars has really been a reflection on past political/military conflicts
   (like the Third Reich) and this marks a noticable turn towards current
   events.
   <p>Not quite!
   <p>If you look at what the Bush administration is doing, it's a simple
   case of using a tried and tested technique that has always worked in
   the past.
   <p>To sum up in 2 keywords "Misinformation" and "Fear"
   <p>This technique has been used throughout history, and if you look at
   pretty much any tyrannical opressive power, you will see the same
   patter. George Orwell summed it up perfectly in 1984, an amazing and
   almost prophetic book, that can be summed up with the above words
   "Misinformation" and "Fear".
   <p>This is also the technique Palpatine is using
   <h>HITLER
   <p>Misinformation - "We're good, clean, white people, and we love
   Germany, freedom and democracy"
   <p>Fear - "Those Jews are gunno infect us, they're animals - Kill em all"
   <h>PALPATINE
   <p>Misinformation -" I'm a good guy and I love the republic, and freedom
   and democracy"
   <p>"Fear" - "Those seperatists are gunno get us - Give me more powers"
   <h>BUSH
   <p>Misinformation - "I Love Freedom, and Justice, and Truth, and Liberty"
   <p>Fear - "Those Terrorists are gunno get us - we better invade their
   countries to stop em"
   <p>It's nothing new, just a tried and tested technique!!
<h>Litmus Configuration
   <p>Devin & Dre, you will simply not rest until the world sways to your
   point of view, eh?
   <p>I don't think they're trying to force their opinions on anyone so much
   as they're just pointing out that not everyone considers EP3 a
   "masterpiece" and that most of the positive reviews (so far) don't
   either. I think the overwhelming majority of people who see EP3 will
   consider it a notable improvement over the last two Prequels (I sure
   as hell do) but that doesn't mean it still doesn't have its own
   troubling flaws that are just as worth discussing as its positive
   attributes. Checks and balances. That's all.
   <p>Is it that difficult to agree to disagree with others?
   <p>If that happens, then this message board runs out of gas pretty damn
   quick.
<h>devincf
   <p>Devin & Dre, you will simply not rest until the world sways to your
   point of view, eh?
   <p>Is it that difficult to agree to disagree with others?
   <p>Seriously, what are you talking about? There are 22 reviews. When it's
   all said and done there will be ten times that many on the site. 22 is
   a drop in the bucket. What is it about the basic mathematics of this
   that you don't understand?
   <p>Stop being an apologist for one minute and understand how some people
   might be able to look at things like "numbers" and not see an attack
   on your precious films.
<h>gl2899
   <p>Devin & Dre, you will simply not rest until the world sways to your
   point of view, eh?
   <p>Is it that difficult to agree to disagree with others?
   <p>No, but apparantly you have a problem with Devin and Dre having their
   opinion.
   <p>Christ, Devin said it was an "OK" Star Wars movie, he didn't trash it.
   <p>So, does he have to kiss it's figurative ass to meet you approval?
   <p>It seems that you're being guilty of what you're accusing Devin and
   Andre of....
   <p>Just sayin'
<h>Andre Dellamorte
   <p>Devin & Dre, you will simply not rest until the world sways to your
   point of view, eh?
   <p>Is it that difficult to agree to disagree with others?
   <p>A bunch of the rviews on RT are positive for a highly anticipated
   summer event film? Shock, surprise! The bulk of the RT stuff comes
   from a release date, and if one is using RT as a measuring stick, then
   it's best to wait until then. Because, arguably, the early reviews are
   coming from online sources, and the real meat and potatoes of RT are
   the print journalists.
   <p>I think the problem with this approach at this juncture is using
   something meaningless to get excited about these movies. Be excited,
   be hopeful. If that's your bag, go with it, but...
<h>DimitriL
   <p>A bunch of the rviews on RT are positive for a highly anticipated
   summer event film? Shock, surprise! The bulk of the RT stuff comes
   from a release date, and if one is using RT as a measuring stick, then
   it's best to wait until then. Because, arguably, the early reviews are
   coming from online sources, and the real meat and potatoes of RT are
   the print journalists.
   <p>I think the problem with this approach at this juncture is using
   something meaningless to get excited about these movies. Be excited,
   be hopeful. If that's your bag, go with it, but...
   <p>RT is fairly useless at any point of the process, except maybe just as
   a long-term reference tool, or a collection of hyperlinks (much the
   same way that I view Drudge).
   <p>I think the only real shocker of any of the current reviews was
   Alexandra DuPont at AICN going kinda nutty for the film. She was about
   as savage on the prequels as anyone, but was entertaining and
   magnificently lucid in her critiques.
<h>Charlie Brigden
   <p>Yeah, I thoroughly enjoyed her review. And the Daily Mail, because
   they slated it, which tells me there's a good chance I'll like it.
<h>Count Floyd
   <p>RT is way more useful as a review depositary than it is as any kind of
   thumbnail consensus. Their Fresh/Rotten is too vague and arbitrary to
   be of much use, from what I've seen. That having been said, there *is*
   a general "B+" vibe to the current reviews if you actually go in and
   read them. It's not 200 reviews, but if you consider it a 10-15%
   sample than it's a halfway-decent bellwether. Everyone seems to agree
   with what's good and what's bad about the movie, it's just a matter of
   degrees.
<h>gl2899
   <p>And Andre,
   <p>It seems that we were right about the script. Everything I've heard
   from Nick, Devin, Russ and Steves reviews to the people that I know
   that went to the screening in Bloomfield Twp, MI tell me that the
   dialog we read in the script makes it's full on ham fisted appearance
   on film.
   <p>What makes it so painfully obvious that Lucas is a shit writer is that
   the novelization was just so much better at telling HIS STORY!
   <p>And I have a feeling that this entry of the franchise will fare worse
   over time than TPM or AOTC.
   <p>I already have friends who after seeing the film, digesting it, and
   thinking it over, are more upset at the missed opportunities displayed
   here than the more obvious blunders of the earlier entries.
   <p>And it's funny that Nick, Devin et al have echoed what my friends
   stated:
   <p>It is an entertaining summer movie, but Star Wars used to mean more
   than that.
<h>Waker
   <p>No, but apparantly you have a problem with Devin and Dre having their
   opinion.
   <p>Christ, Devin said it was an "OK" Star Wars movie, he didn't trash it.
   <p>Actually, he did trash it. At length. Throughout several posts.
<h>Jason P. Thompson
   <p>Actually, he did trash it. At length. Throughout several posts.And if
   so, that's his opinion.
   <p>Deal with it.
<h>The Dark Shape
   <p>For Devin thinking the film was "OK," his review and just about
   everything he posted about Ep. III leans much more heavily towards the
   negative.
   <p>And these reviews still strike me as damage control, so the reviewer
   can either come down on the positive or negative side once all is said
   and done. After all, it's not like anyone would want to have a review
   contrary to popular opinion again, would they?
<h>Holy Diver
   <p>Especially not on CHUD. ;)
   <p>Nothing wrong with having an opinion that's contrary to what's
   popular. But some reviewers just go out of their way to be negative.
   <p>It's a cynical world we live in these days. Where people can't enjoy
   anything anymore without dissecting it and solely focusing on the ugly
   parts. I hate the kind of the review that's straddling the fence,
   there's nothing wrong with actually digging the shit out of a movie
   you know.
   <p>The prequels have been fun as hell in my opinion. Come May 19th, it's
   the end of a great ride for a lot of us.
   <p>Yes you can be a Star Wars fan and hate the prequels, gnash your teeth
   and call Lucas a fucking hack.
   <p>Or you can put that blast shield down and reach out with your
   feelings. :)
   <p>Life's too short to be a negative nerfherder. :D
<h>Waker
   <p>And if so, that's his opinion.
   <p>Deal with it.
   <p>Learn to read. My post doesn't exist in a vacuum - it's a response to
   another, and calls it on its bullshit.
<h>Tom Roberts
   <p>IMHO I think RottenTomatoes is reallly interesting tool. I don't take
   the Fresh / Rotten rating as an absolute, nothing like RT > 80%
   therefore i will see this film.
   <p>As for the 22 reviews, sure there will be 200 reviews for a movie like
   star wars. But from looking at those 22 it's often good enough to get
   a trend that will indicate what the other 80-90% of reviews will be
   like. And that's why I posted it.
   <p>At 92% with 26 now.
<h>Graham
   <p>Anyone else noticed this?
   <p>Are they related?
   <p>I think we should be told.
<h>Samurai Mike
   <p>I knew there was something suspicious about those TIE fighters flying
   over the Vatican!
<h>JacknifeJohnny
   <h>May the Force Be with Ew(an)
   <p>Ewan McGregor didnt have to balance his Starbucks half-foam half-skim
   mocha latte in one hand and his copy of The Da Vinci Code in the other
   while shoving his kids into his Honda Odyssey to make it into
   Stars--Theyre Just Like US. All he had to do was admit that
   Star Wars fans scare the bejesus out of him.
   <p>McGregors thoughts on the basement-dwelling fanboys were as follows:
   "There's this huge following, which is weird. They have big meets and
   conventions, and I find it all a bit frightening. Once this guy met me
   at a stage door when I was doing a play in London. The guy yelled,
   'Obi-Wan. Do you have any advice for a trainee Jedi?' I just said,
   'No, don't be so ridiculous.' If McGregor thinks that constantly being
   asked to whip out his light saber is creepy, then he better prepare
   himself for the reaction hell get from his upcoming project Gnomeo and
   Juliet. Ewan will voice the character Gnomeo to Kate Winslets Juliet
   in the story of indoor gnome-outdoor gnome love (and, no, we
   absolutely did not make this up). Once McGregor gets a taste of those
   psychotic garden gnome fans, hell be begging to appear next to Mark
   Hamill at every Star Wars convention.
<h>The Sphinx
   <p>Spracht Scott. Pseudo-random excerpts:
   <p>This is by far the best film in the more recent trilogy, and also the
   best of the four episodes Mr. Lucas has directed. That's right (and my
   inner 11-year-old shudders as I type this): it's better than "Star
   Wars."
   ...
   <p>But every picture, however ravishing, needs a story, and the best way
   to appreciate how well this one succeeds is to consider the obstacles
   it must surmount in winning over its audience. First of all, though
   there are a few surprises tucked into the narrative (which I won't
   give away), everybody knows the big revelation of the end, since it
   was also the big revelation at the end of the previous trilogy: Darth
   Vader is Luke's father. We also know, for the most part, which of the
   major figures are going to survive the various perils they face. So an
   element of suspense is missing from the outset.
   <p>More than that, the trajectory of the narrative cuts sharply against
   the optimistic grain of blockbuster Hollywood, in that we are
   witnessing a flawed hero devolving into a cruel and terrifying
   villain. It is a measure of the film's accomplishment that this
   process is genuinely upsetting, even if we are reminded that a measure
   of redemption lies over the horizon in "Return of the Jedi." And while
   Mr. Christensen's acting falls short of portraying the full
   psychological texture of this transformation, Mr. Lucas nonetheless
   grounds it in a cogent and (for the first time) comprehensible
   political context.
   <p>"This is how liberty dies - to thunderous applause," Padmé observes as
   senators, their fears and dreams of glory deftly manipulated by
   Palpatine, vote to give him sweeping new powers. "Revenge of the Sith"
   is about how a republic dismantles its own democratic principles,
   about how politics becomes militarized, about how a Manichaean
   ideology undermines the rational exercise of power. Mr. Lucas is
   clearly jabbing his light saber in the direction of some real-world
   political leaders. At one point, Darth Vader, already deep in the
   thrall of the dark side and echoing the words of George W. Bush,
   hisses at Obi-Wan, "If you're not with me, you're my enemy." Obi-Wan's
   response is likely to surface as a bumper sticker during the next
   election campaign: "Only a Sith thinks in absolutes." You may applaud
   this editorializing, or you may find it overwrought, but give Mr.
   Lucas his due. For decades he has been blamed (unjustly) for helping
   to lead American movies away from their early-70's engagement with
   political matters, and he deserves credit for trying to bring them
   back.
   <p>But of course the rise of the Empire and the perdition of Anakin
   Skywalker are not the end of the story, and the inverted chronology
   turns out to be the most profound thing about the "Star Wars" epic.
   Taken together, and watched in the order they were made, the films
   reveal the cyclical nature of history, which seems to repeat itself
   even as it moves forward. Democracies swell into empires, empires are
   toppled by revolutions, fathers abandon their sons and sons find their
   fathers. Movies end. Life goes on.That's a solid three stars at the
   very least. Interesting that Scott thinks the middle-is-the-end
   chronology of the two trilogies works... that it not only works, but
   resonates with the whole 'Force' theme of Star Wars.
   <p>I'm a little encouraged by that review. It's a better explanation for
   liking the film than 'Darth Vader's in it!' and 'Wow, it looks just
   like the original Star Wars at the end!' On the other hand, I wonder
   if Scott is just a little giddy over the idea that Lucas is putting
   George Bush's words in Darth Vader's mouth. Good fun for liberals like
   myself, but not necessarily right for Star Wars.
<h>Samurai Mike
   <p>Isn't it funny how Padme comments on loss of liberty, when it was HER
   fucking off and giving Jar Jar the vote in AOTC that led to it!! She
   complains about genocide in TPM, then shrugs her shoulders when Anakin
   admits to it in the second film. And I hear she has even LESS to do in
   this one, other than gestate.
   <p>Thats stupid.
<h>smugbug
   <p>Oh c'mon. If you can stomach it on ROTJ, you can stomach it here. It's
   as if people must have their SW totally humorless. So Lucas can't tell
   a joke to save his ass, get over it.
   <p>I intend on seeing this flick after consuming the sufficient amount of
   beer. By "sufficient" I mean, whatever amount necessary that it would
   make me at least laugh out loud to even the bad jokes.
   <p>Hmmmmm....and thats the dilemma. Not enough beer, and I will feel my
   ass getting numb. Too much, and I'll just pass out and miss the whole
   thing. Er....my vote is for too much.
   <p>Beer seems to be the necessary item so that someone could tolerate
   this movie. Hey, is there even a "beer drinking game" possible in this
   installment?
<h>Micah Robinson
   <p>The Ebert review is up:
   <p>Also, I'm going to close this thread and start with a fresh clean
   slate shortly before the Wednesday midnight screenings.
<h>Ahoatam
   <p>On the other hand, I wonder if Scott is just a little giddy over the
   idea that Lucas is putting George Bush's words in Darth Vader's mouth.
   Good fun for liberals like myself, but not necessarily right for Star
   Wars.
   <p>This is what I'm trying to get at. While most of the folks here
   probably won't mind, and even enjoy such thinly-veiled criticism of
   the current administration, I think to a decent portion of the
   population it may come across as extreme partisanship. While many of
   you have illustrated Lucas' political subtexts in other SW films, I
   think it's a lot more in-your-face in ROTS, which is very un-Star
   Wars.
   <p>So forgetting the fact that the film may endorse your own personal
   view of the current administration (by your own, I mean anyone here),
   it is wise for Lucas to risk dis-associating half of his audience who
   simply wanted to see the end of a space opera and not an idictment on
   the guy they voted for and maybe still have faith in? Seriously, not
   looking for a political lecture here, because no one's going to change
   anyone's mind, just looking for some honest looks at what this means
   for Star Wars.
   <p>Granted, it could be argued that Lucas had this story set in '99,
   before Bush, but I think the sudden thrust of politics to the center
   of the Star Wars stage warrants some discussion.
<h>cognizant
   <p>The emphasis on politics in this trilogy was not needed, it surely
   wasnt essential to tell a story of the rise and fall of Anakin
   Skywalker with politics involved. The trilogy could have just focused
   on him and Obi 1. The Emperor and his political manoeuvres could has
   just been vaguely hinted at in the background of the universe. I think
   the focus on politics was in part, written to raise SW slightly above
   that often derided concept of 'mass popular culture' to be taken
   slightly more seriously by adults and prehaps be perceived as
   something even integral, or meaningful to culture, rather than
   something to simply escape to for a few hours, but obviously Lucas has
   failed at this, the story has suffered as a result. Seeing geeky
   teenagers talk to news crew on TV about how this is an important
   Shakespearean tragic tale is laughable.
   <p>SW shouldnt be taken seriously, its an escapist adventure tale without
   logic, but full of spunk. Well, the first trilogy was anyway. The
   second trilogy appears to me as a schizophrenic mish mash of mediocre
   sci-fi, and the frantic attempts of an ageing man trying to
   update/modify/remix his legacy.
<h>Micah Robinson
   <p>That's just silly. You can't depict the creation of a dictator-led
   military empire without focusing on politics. Anakin's turn occurs
   within this context, not outside of it. Besides, Palpatine's
   machinations were scripted and depicted BEFORE Bush's war on Iraq.
   Besides, the Jedi are the UN, and they certainly don't come off as
   heroic, smart, or helpful in the least in this film, so there's
   criticism of the Right and the Left to be found in spades. If people
   can only see the obvious Bush metaphors, then they're not even really
   looking at the film.
<h>Charlie Brigden
   <p>The emphasis on politics in this trilogy was not needed, it surely
   wasnt essential to tell a story of the rise and fall of Anakin
   Skywalker with politics involved. The trilogy could have just focused
   on him and Obi 1. The Emperor and his political manoeuvres could has
   just been vaguely hinted at in the background of the universe. I think
   the focus on politics was in part, written to raise SW slightly above
   that often derided concept of 'mass popular culture' to be taken
   slightly more seriously by adults and prehaps be perceived as
   something even integral, or meaningful to culture, rather than
   something to simply escape to for a few hours, but obviously Lucas has
   failed at this, the story has suffered as a result. Seeing geeky
   teenagers talk to news crew on TV about how this is an important
   Shakespearean tragic tale is laughable.
   <p>I disagree. The trilogy isn't just about Anakin, but also the Empire,
   and especially since Palpatine plays such an important role in
   Anakin's development and eventual turn, all of Palpatine's
   maneouverings are entirely necessary. For example, showing him getting
   into the chancellor's position, his growing influence over the Jedi,
   and subsequent acts against them. It's also the most interesting stuff
   in all of the prequels.
   <p>To be fair, ever since the 70s and the whole journal of the whills
   deal, the rise of the Empire has always been described as this big
   corruption of politics. I think saying it's trying to be taken
   seriously by including politics is overly-cynical.
<h>Litmus Configuration
   <p>Actually, I would liked to have seen more of Palpatine's politics and
   less of Jar Jar's...well, anything. All of that precious screen time,
   wasted. (And that's not another tired criticism of what a terrible
   character Jar Jar is...more like a criticism of Lucas' storytelling
   priorities.) When Palpatine and Anakin discuss the Sith during the
   opera, I actually leaned forward in my theater seat. More of the
   phantom menace's origins would have been appreciated by this viewer.
<h>mastronikolas
   <p>The politics were absolutely necessary for the story.
   <p>There's a clear parallel between the Republic rotting from the inside
   and turning into a dictatorship and Anakin starting out as a decent
   person and turning into evil incarnate.
   <p>And ultimately, the Senate scenes were about 20 minutes of screen time
   out of six-and-a-half hours of story.
<h>cognizant
   <p>Meeeh, I'll concede that it works with emphasis on politics, just
   didnt work for me with this specific vision. Besides, the OT hardly
   has any politics, and those films are meant to depict the end of an
   empire and the re-establishment of the status quo, or some type of
   equilibrium, and all we get is a few throwaway lines about some senate
   or something.
   <p>I still think the PT could have worked without any direct emphasis on
   politics, it just would have been in the background, like online
   political debates/campaign adverts, or news of conflicts or coup de
   tat's, that characters would watch ocassionally to keep up to date
   with the situation, or the presence of stormtroopers slowly
   multiplying in more and more worlds, etc, it just could have been done
   subtlely, rather than the way we've seen it.
   <p>And I'll admit, that when it comes to SW, I'm very cynical, but I cant
   help it, the over the top, and increasinly ridiculous merchandise
   aspect just leaves me cold.
<h>Micah Robinson
   <p>Yes, relegating Ian McDarmid - the shining jewel of this installment
   according to almost every review, even the negative ones - to a less
   prominent role would certainly help the current Star Wars films work
   better. Slice his screentime in half and let's have some more witty
   battle droid banter.
<h>Charlie Brigden
   <p>Because the merchandise levels of the OT were low?
   <p>The point is, the OT never had politics because it was a different
   time. The Emperor dissolves all the diplomatic bits early in ANH, with
   Tarkin stating "the remnants of the Old Republic have been swept
   away." This is the point, that any chance of democracy, of change has
   been completely and utterly destroyed, giving the motivation for the
   whole movement of the Rebellion.
<h>devincf
   <p>Because the merchandise levels of the OT were low?
   <p>The point is, the OT never had politics because it was a different
   time. The Emperor dissolves all the diplomatic bits early in ANH, with
   Tarkin stating "the remnants of the Old Republic have been swept
   away." This is the point, that any chance of democracy, of change has
   been completely and utterly destroyed, giving the motivation for the
   whole movement of the Rebellion.
   <p>Apologist! There's plenty of political stuff going on during a
   rebellion. Do you think that all the systems that joined the rebellion
   wanted the same power structure when it was all said and done? Do you
   think all the reps in whatever made up the rebellion high command (we
   don't even know their power structure! But we know all about the power
   structure of the old republic...) agreed from campaign to campaign?
   Weren't our heroes in the OT close enough to that power structure that
   we should have been in on these debates at least as much as we were in
   the PT?
   <p>This "it's a function of the story" stuff is bullshit.
<h>Charlie Brigden
   <p>Okay, everything is marketing. I give up.
<h>ElCapitanAmerica
   <p>Apologist!
   <p>Heretic! Devincf the Spanish Grand Inquisitor has spoken!
<h>Jacob Singer
   <p>From CNN:
   <h>Lucas on Iraq war, 'Star Wars'
   <h>From CNN's Chris Burns
   <p>CANNES, France (CNN) -- "Star Wars" director George Lucas says that
   although he wrote the original film during the Vietnam War, his
   six-part saga could apply to the war in Iraq.
   <p>''In terms of evil, one of the original concepts was how does a
   democracy turn itself into a dictatorship,'' Lucas told a news
   conference at Cannes, where his final episode had its world premiere.
   <p>''The parallels between what we did in Vietnam and what we're doing in
   Iraq now are unbelievable.
   <p>''On the personal level it was how does a good person turn into a bad
   person, and part of the observation of that is that most bad people
   think they are good people, they are doing it for the right reasons,''
   he added.
   <p>More at the link.
<h>The Dark Shape
   <p>Apologist! There's plenty of political stuff going on during a
   rebellion. Do you think that all the systems that joined the rebellion
   wanted the same power structure when it was all said and done? Do you
   think all the reps in whatever made up the rebellion high command (we
   don't even know their power structure! But we know all about the power
   structure of the old republic...) agreed from campaign to campaign?
   Weren't our heroes in the OT close enough to that power structure that
   we should have been in on these debates at least as much as we were in
   the PT?
   <p>This "it's a function of the story" stuff is bullshit.
   <p>Okay, Devin. How should Lucas have shown the collapse of a government
   without politics being involved?
<h>devincf
   <p>I'm not remotely interested in writing a new PT. All you need are a
   couple of lines, similar to the "He dissolved the senate" line from
   the first star wars.
<h>The Dark Shape
   <p>You can't cheat like that when your main villain is the man taking
   over the government.
<h>ilmandthx
   <p>I consider myself an apologist with a conscience. I like the prequels
   for what they are, but I know in my gut they could've been so much
   more. I really wish Lucas would've kept his producing hat on, directed
   the effects and animation sequences (where his true passions lie), and
   left the screenwriting and directing the actors to someone(s) who
   could interject a little humanity.
   <p>Most of the ideas, themes, even design and set pieces in the PT are
   intellectually sound. The problem is that no one feels anything. And
   if they do, generally its out of a sense of nostalgia rather than
   immediate tugging at the heartstrings.
   <p>Lucas is a master visualist. He also has a pretty good sense of story
   structure and has some really innovative ideas. The problem is the guy
   is admittedly impatient when it comes to the writing and directing
   processes.
   <p>The politics of the PT are an interesting inclusion to the SW
   storyline, but they are far too talky and overcomplicated for their
   own good. Much like this post. Ahem, there is no immediate drama
   involved in the politics until ROTS. That to me, is a huge mistake.
   <p>The PT as well as Matrix: Reloaded and Matrix: Revolutions are
   examples of first draft scripts, directors with too much power and no
   one to check them, and misplaced priorities. Best intentions, even
   when they are completely revealed via commentaries, interviews, etc.,
   cannot make up for lackluster execution.
   <p>Remember that old Godzilla dig that ILM had? PLOT DOES MATTER? How
   about DRAMA DOES MATTER?
<h>devincf
   <p>You can't cheat like that when your main villain is the man taking
   over the government.
   <p>No, that's the main villain of the PT where boring politics are the
   forefront. A PT with less politics could have had the Emperor in as
   minimal a role as he had in the OT.
<h>Micah Robinson
   <p>No, that's the main villain of the PT where boring politics are the
   forefront. A PT with less politics could have had the Emperor in as
   minimal a role as he had in the OT.
   <p>No thanks. McDarmid's evolution from Senator to Chancellor to Emperor
   is not only one of the best parts of the PT, but also the perfect
   platform for illustrating the arrogance and flaws of the Jedi.
   <p>Now, the separatist talks, along with the other irrelevant races and
   the senate debates could have been minimized for sure. But anything
   subtracting from McDarmid's screentime hurts these movies, IMHO.
<h>cognizant
   <p>No thanks. McDarmid's evolution from Senator to Chancellor to Emperor
   is not only one of the best parts of the PT, but also the perfect
   platform for illustrating the arrogance and flaws of the Jedi.
   <p>Of course in my re-imagining of the PT, the Jedi would not have been
   the wankers we have seen them to be. Making them incredibly dull,
   brainless and flawed, makes their downfall so much easier to write.
   Its harder to creatively bring about the downfall of something thats
   working right, but Lucas...
   <p>Anyway my opinion still stands, the story of Anakin's fall did not
   need focus on politics, or even the Emperor, as Devin says, this I'm
   sure is a minority opinion, but I think still a valid one, any one of
   us could come up with three screenplays that could be on par with the
   OT without resorting to real world political allegories. Well not any
   one of us, but you get the jist. If we were basing the PT off of what
   we'd seen in the OT, all we'd essentially need, is the Clone Wars, and
   thats it.
   <p>Defending the focus on politics, simply because of McDarmid's
   performance, surely means that everything else was bollocks. I'd
   rather downsize his role, in exchange for a better trilogy of films as
   a whole, with an exciting, original and involving narrative.
<h>Ahoatam
   <p>From the very beginning, the PT is infused with overly complicated
   politics, when in the OT there were virtually none. Dispute over the
   taxation of trade routes? Wat???
   <p>Why can't we give Padme a couple of throwaway lines to cover what's
   going on in the Senate? "Okay, Anakin, pookie, I'm going to go vote
   against the creation of a republic army, because that would give the
   Chancellor a chance to be naughty. See you later."
<h>dudalb
   <p>I think where Lucas shoots himself in the foot with his political
   commentary is in Obi Wan's reply "Only the Sith Deal in Absolutes".
   Considering that for five films one of the basis is a very absolute
   idea of good vs evil (Empire/Sith Bad, Republic/Jedi Good) it's a
   little late to be condemning absolutes. A reply from Obi Wan like "You
   are truly from the Dark Side, Chacellor" would have been a hell of a
   lot better.
   <p>Lucas leaves himself wide open with that remark.
<h>Samurai Mike
   <p>Of course in my re-imagining of the PT, the Jedi would not have been
   the wankers we have seen them to be. Making them incredibly dull,
   brainless and flawed, makes their downfall so much easier to write.
   Its harder to creatively bring about the downfall of something thats
   working right, but Lucas...
   <p>Totally agree with that. How could a group of such ignorant,
   close-minded, arrogant and just downright stupid people be the
   guardians of peace and justice for over a thousand generations? The
   prequels make it seem as if the Jedi were the architects of their own
   fate, rather than anything the Sith did. That could work, if only the
   last film wasn't called 'Return of the Jedi', where the Sith are
   brought down by Ewoks.
   <p>And about the politics, I think there should have been a political
   aspect to the PT, just not the boring, oversimplified and poorly
   thought out politics we've seen. The Republic was brought down by ONE
   man so cunning, the other trillions of creatures around him didn't
   suspect a thing? And don't even get me STARTED on Yoda "I can sense
   the Dark Side but not when its sitting right in front of me".
<h>ElCapitanAmerica
   <p>I think where Lucas shoots himself in the foot with his political
   commentary is in Obi Wan's reply "Only the Sith Deal in Absolutes".
   Considering that for five films one of the basis is a very absolute
   idea of good vs evil (Empire/Sith Bad, Republic/Jedi Good) it's a
   little late to be condemning absolutes. A reply from Obi Wan like "You
   are truly from the Dark Side, Chacellor" would have been a hell of a
   lot better.
   <p>Lucas leaves himself wide open with that remark.
   <p>You make the same point on multiple threads, so I'm not sure were you
   want to read the reply to your silly point. I wrote something in the
   ep3 thread in franchises;
<h>dudalb
   <p>Totally agree with that. How could a group of such ignorant,
   close-minded, arrogant and just downright stupid people be the
   guardians of peace and justice for over a thousand generations? The
   prequels make it seem as if the Jedi were the architects of their own
   fate, rather than anything the Sith did. That could work, if only the
   last film wasn't called 'Return of the Jedi', where the Sith are
   brought down by Ewoks.
   <p>And about the politics, I think there should have been a political
   aspect to the PT, just not the boring, oversimplified and poorly
   thought out politics we've seen. The Republic was brought down by ONE
   man so cunning, the other trillions of creatures around him didn't
   suspect a thing? And don't even get me STARTED on Yoda "I can sense
   the Dark Side but not when its sitting right in front of me".
   <p>I agree. I think that Lucas meant to show that the Jedi had, with the
   rest of the Republic, had declined to the point where they were
   vulnerable to the Sith, a la Rome and the Barbarians,but he blew that
   concept completely.
   <p>And i repeat that his blacks are too blacks and whites are too white
   for Lucas to start screaming about absolutes at this point in time.
<h>ElCapitanAmerica
   <p>The Republic was brought down by ONE man so cunning, the other
   trillions of creatures around him didn't suspect a thing?
   <p>Uh .. in the original trilogy, the rebellion beats the empire because
   of a Tatooine farm boy.
<h>Litmus Configuration
   <p>Uh .. in the original trilogy, the rebellion beats the empire because
   of a Tatooine farm boy.
   <l>Vader kills The Emperor.
   <l>Han and Leia blow up the shield generator.
   <l>Lando and Wedge blow up the Death Star's main reactor.
   <l>Random A-Wing pilot takes out The Executor.
   <l>Rebel pilots, troops and (gulp!) Ewoks killed or captured countless
   Imperial troops.
   <p>What exactly did Luke do, aside from settling some very important
   personal business?
<h>ElCapitanAmerica
   05-17-2005, 12:55 AM
   <p>Vader kills the Emperor because of Luke.
   <p>The Emperor manipulates everybody to control the galaxy.
   <p>Simple.
<h>Litmus Configuration
   <p>Vader kills the Emperor because of Luke.
   <p>The Emperor manipulates everybody to control the galaxy.
   <p>Simple.
   <p>Vader killing The Emperor would have been moot in a few minutes
   anyway, once Lando and Wedge blew up the main reactor.
<h>D. Richard
   <p>ok I just read most of the thread, and having just finished watching
   the film I still don't understand the anakin conception deal.
   <p>Palpatine tells Anakin a story of a great Darth lord that knew the
   darisk side of the force so well he could blah blah blah midichlorians
   blah blah with merely a look. All right, so according to the story,
   Darth Plagus (Plagius, Plageus? whatev) conceived Anakin while Sidious
   was his apprentice. Sidious murders his master in his sleep and takes
   over the Anakin plot himself. That's what I got from it. And assuming
   Palpatine is lying and did the whole scheme himself seems like a
   pointless assumption. "Because Palpatine is a liar, and liars lie."?
   Not good enough. He plainly speaks of this great Darth lord getting
   axed in his sleep by his apprentice as if he was the one who did it.
   If we can believe that part, why can we not believe that Palpatine
   wasn't the telepathic sperm donor?
   <p>I think the concept of Palpatine as an opportunistic apprentice who
   murders his master is far more appealing than the one of him making up
   stories that take away from his supposed genius.
<h>Rene A. Moncivais
   <p>I didn't know Jerry Jones was in this?
<h>MrMushnik
   <p>"Because Palpatine is a liar, and liars lie."? Not good enough. He
   plainly speaks of this great Darth lord getting axed in his sleep by
   his apprentice as if he was the one who did it. If we can believe that
   part, why can we not believe that Palpatine wasn't the telepathic
   sperm donor?
   <p>I think the concept of Palpatine as an opportunistic apprentice who
   murders his master is far more appealing than the one of him making up
   stories that take away from his supposed genius.
   <p>Good liars mix their lies with the truth though. He could be telling
   Anakin the truth about his master and at the same time leading Anakin
   to believe that he is the one responsible for his creation. That way
   he hooks Anakin with the "creating life" part and then goes on and
   pits himself against Obi-Wan as a father figure. And plus we've alrady
   seen more or less the same scenario in Episdode 2 when Dooku tries to
   recruit Obi-Wan.
<h>Litmus Configuration
   <p>I think the concept of Palpatine as an opportunistic apprentice who
   murders his master is far more appealing than the one of him making up
   stories that take away from his supposed genius.
   <p>I agree. This whole silly "Palpatine is lying" theory is incredibly
   thin. Besides, Obi-Wan has told far more lies than Palpatine. "Certain
   point of view," my ass. I'd wager that if you took all of Palpatine's
   dialogue from the films and do the same with Obi-Wan, Palpy would win
   the "Who's More Truthful?" contest hands down.
<h>mastronikolas
   <p>The fact that Palpatine seduces Anakin by essentially telling the
   truth (even if it is "from a certain point of view") is one of the
   most interesting facets of Sith.
   <p>Besides, I don't get the whole uproar about his "revelation". I enjoy
   the fact that Lucas leaves it to us to choose if Palpatine was behind
   Anakin's creation or not. I much prefer that than being spoon-fed a
   definite answer.
<h>Satan's Hamster
   <p>I intend on seeing this flick after consuming the sufficient amount of
   beer. By "sufficient" I mean, whatever amount necessary that it would
   make me at least laugh out loud to even the bad jokes.
   <p>Hmmmmm....and thats the dilemma. Not enough beer, and I will feel my
   ass getting numb. Too much, and I'll just pass out and miss the whole
   thing. Er....my vote is for too much.
   <p>Beer seems to be the necessary item so that someone could tolerate
   this movie. Hey, is there even a "beer drinking game" possible in this
   installment?
   <p>Don't go crying if you get alcohol poisoning! I think there sould be a
   drinking game where you have to do a shot of vodka every time someone
   says something stupid, in which case, should you die after seeing the
   film and you were too be cremated, your body would burn for three
   months!!!
<h>mastronikolas
   <p>Smugbug and little fury fourteen-year-old, I envy your prescient
   abilities.
<h>Satan's Hamster
   <p>First of all you fucking twats, there was no need for politics in the
   OT because The Empire had been in control for close to 20 years and I
   doubt that the Rebellion would have very successful by launching a
   political attack when the Emperor would just fry their ass with Sith
   Lightning. If this was Mr. Skywalker Goes To Washington, A New Hope
   wouldn't have been about trying to destroy a Death Star, it would have
   been about Luke going to the Galactic senate and making his case that
   the Empire is evil and that the Emperor and Darth Vader were very
   naughty men while wagging his finger at them as the senate hiss and
   boo as they slide into the shadows. Politics are at the very heart of
   how Palpatine takes over the senate and to ignore that for more space
   battles would be stupid and Im quite sure that most of the people that
   are bitching and moaning about the politics here are Republicans and
   they dont particularly like looking into the mirror because theyre all
   fucking monkeys with their eyes, mouth and ears closed!
<h>Satan's Hamster
   <p>Another thing fuckwads, how the hell did you think Hitler got to
   power. He didn't wake up one morning as leader of the Nazi party. When
   Lucas was writing the OT I'm sure Hitler's rise might of influenced
   him SOMEWHAT given that he's Jewish, DONTCHA THUNK, and the
   similarities to George W. Bush are just a happy little coincidence.
<h>kittyinjammies
   <p>Hey, Hamster. Cool it, ok?
<h>Ahoatam
   <p>Another thing fuckwads, how the hell did you think Hitler got to
   power. He didn't wake up one morning as leader of the Nazi party. When
   Lucas was writing the OT I'm sure Hitler's rise might of influenced
   him SOMEWHAT given that he's Jewish, DONTCHA THUNK, and the
   similarities to George W. Bush are just a happy little coincidence.
   <p>I don't care what the others say. You're special too, okay little guy?
   <p>Seriously, did AICN reach capacity or something?
<h>Dan Whitehead
   <p>A reminder (for any new
   posters who have joined the boards just to vent SW related bullshit at
   others.
   <p>In a nutshell: Start shit, get banned.
<h>Jason P. Thompson
   <p>In a nutshell: Start shit, get banned.Well put.
<h>Greg Clark
   <p>That should be at the top of the user agreement page when you
   register. "Welcome to CHUD. Have fun, don't feed Jabba after midnight,
   and if you start shit, you will get banned."
<h>dudalb
   <p>Kudos to Dan for handling this asswipe in a timely manner.
   <p>BTW not that it matters but Lucas is not Jewish. I got a feeling this
   asswipe is the same one who showed up spouting shit that Lucas was a
   greedy Jew a couple of weeks ago.
   <p>He really needs to find a more acceptable way of getting attention to
   himself.
   <p>Sadly, the closer we get to the film the more Alpha Hotels are going
   to show up here.
<h>Brad Millette
   <p>Kudos to Dan for handling this asswipe in a timely manner.
   <p>BTW not that it matters but Lucas is not Jewish. I got a feeling this
   asswipe is the same one who showed up spouting shit that Lucas was a
   greedy Jew a couple of weeks ago.
   <p>He really needs to find a more acceptable way of getting attention to
   himself.
   <p>Sadly, the closer we get to the film the more Alpha Hotels are going
   to show up here.
   <p>Seriously man, hobbies? Needlepoint? Macaroni sculptures? You have to
   have SOMETHING better to do with your time.
<h>dudalb
   <p>Seriously man, hobbies? Needlepoint? Macaroni sculptures? You have to
   have SOMETHING better to do with your time.
   <p>Civil War reenacting, reading, gaming, Softball...I do all those.
   <p>And you could ask the same question about 80% of the people here.
   <p>Chud is a fun place to hang out at. that's all.
<h>Brad Millette
   <p>So.. uh.. stop being a shining chunk of trollbait, then.
<h>MattCG
   <p>Saw this last night and overall I agree that this is best prequel yet,
   but that's not saying a whole lot. It's still a troubled film, with
   some scenes that are so embarrassingly bad that you're ashamed to be
   in the theater. Still, the good outweighs the bad and the prequel
   lovers will love it and the haters will have some of theri goodwill
   won back.
   <p>That said, this movie has got serious fucking issues. The main being
   Hayden Christiansen and his Smarm/Assfucker/Whine approach to acting.
   If someone could kill him? That would be great.
   <p>The other being C-3P0. Sweet Jesus.
   <p>Also, I would've thought Anakin's fall to the Dark Side would've been
   handled with a little more......skill. What we have here is the
   equivalent of "I'm a Dark Lord of Sith.......NOW!" It's total
   bullshit.
   <p>All in all, a mostly fun movie and lots of prayers the Lucas NEVER BE
   ALLOWED TO DIRECT ANYTHING EVER, EVER AGAIN!!!!
<h>robotpals
   <p>"Only the Sith Deal in Absolutes."
   <p>An absolutist statement if I ever heard one.
<h>Micah Robinson
   <p>"Only the Sith Deal in Absolutes."
   <p>An absolutist statement if I ever heard one.
   <p>Completely, and it's a good indication of Lucas' cluelessness as a
   screenwriter.
   <p>BTW, I'm closing this thread shortly and opening a fresh one.
<h>Andrew Clarke
   <p>Though Micah's right to start a fresh one, it is kind of funny to
   close a post release thread just as the film is opening.
<h>robotpals
   <p>Last!
